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The simple fact of the matter is that if you take an EV for a long road trip across America today, your choice of route will be very dependent on where charging

The simple fact of the matter is that if you take an EV for a long road trip across America today, your choice of route will be very dependent on where charging stations exist. With an ICE vehicle, it's barely a consideration. For the few areas where you know you'll be too far from a gas station the solution is simple: A cheap gas can or two filled with fuel. What's the reasonable and cost effective equivalent for an EV? The other issue is that even a fast charger takes considerably longer than a gas pump to refill your car. This, coupled with the relatively low availability of them overall, means that you are more likely to have to wait in line for your turn and you spend even more time not on the road traveling to your destination. With all this being said, I think an EV is very compelling as a secondary vehicle for 90%+ of use cases so long as you also have an ICE vehicle and a sufficient way to charge your EV at home.

toomuchtodo 4y ago
People may continue to pay for $4-5/gallon gas if they so choose. It is a free country, after all. Gas prices will not go back down so long as refinery capacity is constrained [1] [2] [3] (which it will be in perpetuity, as investment will not flow to it with fossil fuel phase outs in progress, and refinery lifecycles are measured in decades). Let the free hand of the market do its thing. People will figure it out [4], pricing signals and all that jazz [5]. You can lead a horse to water but drowning it does no good. Let it drink when it is sufficiently thirsty. Maybe gas prices prices have to go even higher, who knows! I am morbidly curious to see. [1] https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/en/market-insights/latest-news/oil/062122-us-refining-capacity-falls-to-lowest-mark-in-8-years-amid-record-prices-eia https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/en/market-insight... [2] https://ycharts.com/indicators/us_operable_crude_oil_distillation_capacity https://ycharts.com/indicators/us_operable_crude_oil_distill... [3] https://www.marketplace.org/2022/05/23/u-s-oil-refiners-margins-smash-records-but-few-plan-to-build-more-plants/ https://www.marketplace.org/2022/05/23/u-s-oil-refiners-marg... [4] https://electrek.co/2022/03/25/tesla-models-sold-out-2023-price-increase/ https://electrek.co/2022/03/25/tesla-models-sold-out-2023-pr... [5] https://electrek.co/2022/03/22/electric-cars-3-to-6-times-cheaper-to-drive-us-high-gas-prices/ https://electrek.co/2022/03/22/electric-cars-3-to-6-times-ch...
- timapplesauce 4y ago
  That’s a very “let them eat cake” attitude that doesn’t serve anyone well. EVs are simply not an option for the majority of people in the world until their cost decreases and their range increases. Fossil fuels need to be phased out but forcing gas prices up this fast is a very cruel way to do it.
- lttlrck 4y ago
  Spoken by someone with enough money to have owned multiple Tesla's IIRC.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - toomuchtodo 4y ago
    The comment was focused on those who can afford an EV but choose not to get one, not those who cannot afford one. Nuance. Consider it in the context of the comment above it, complaining that it takes a bit longer to charge than fueling a combustion vehicle. Citation 5 in my above comment even shows EVs to be 3-6 times cheaper to operate. We want to help the poor; enact a carbon tax and rebate scheme. Let wealthy carbon consumers buy low income folks EVs. They are unable to afford them on their own. I have a great deal of compassion for genuine hardship. I do not have compassion for voluntary suboptimal economic decisions by people of means out of a minimal amount of convenience sacrificed.
    - timapplesauce 4y ago
      > I have a great deal of compassion for genuine hardship. The rapid increase in gas prices is causing a lot of genuine hardship. Not to mention the follow on effects of higher consumer prices for essentials like food.
    - clouddrover 4y ago
      > I do not have compassion for voluntary suboptimal economic decisions by people of means out of a minimal amount of convenience sacrificed No, you have a lot of compassion for suboptimal economic decisions. For example, you advocate for charging infrastructure that only charges one brand of EV even though that is clearly a suboptimal economic decision that builds dumb infrastructure with less utility. Worse than that, you mock the low price of the Chevy Bolt even though it's a good hatchback with decent range for an EV. If you genuinely want to help the poor then you want to advocate for infrastructure that can charge all EVs regardless of brand. That way when people eventually buy one of the low price EVs of the world it can be charged just as easily as a high priced EV. Common infrastructure helps everyone, rich and poor alike. Brand exclusive infrastructure helps only the few.
glennpratt 4y ago
> an EV is very compelling as a secondary vehicle This is a strange way to think about it. Our secondary vehicle has a huge gas tank and other things we need rarely. Our primary vehicle has what we need day to day, just enough seats for the family and space for groceries.
- timapplesauce 4y ago
  I meant secondary as in a second vehicle so as long as you own an ICE vehicle already. I’m sure if I had an EV it would absolutely get the most usage of the 2. If I dropped $35-50,000 on a car you bet I’d drive it a lot! :)

toomuchtodo 4y ago

People may continue to pay for $4-5/gallon gas if they so choose. It is a free country, after all. Gas prices will not go back down so long as refinery capacity is constrained [1] [2] [3] (which it will be in perpetuity, as investment will not flow to it with fossil fuel phase outs in progress, and refinery lifecycles are measured in decades). Let the free hand of the market do its thing. People will figure it out [4], pricing signals and all that jazz [5]. You can lead a horse to water but drowning it does no good. Let it drink when it is sufficiently thirsty. Maybe gas prices prices have to go even higher, who knows! I am morbidly curious to see. [1] https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/en/market-insights/latest-news/oil/062122-us-refining-capacity-falls-to-lowest-mark-in-8-years-amid-record-prices-eia https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/en/market-insight... [2] https://ycharts.com/indicators/us_operable_crude_oil_distillation_capacity https://ycharts.com/indicators/us_operable_crude_oil_distill... [3] https://www.marketplace.org/2022/05/23/u-s-oil-refiners-margins-smash-records-but-few-plan-to-build-more-plants/ https://www.marketplace.org/2022/05/23/u-s-oil-refiners-marg... [4] https://electrek.co/2022/03/25/tesla-models-sold-out-2023-price-increase/ https://electrek.co/2022/03/25/tesla-models-sold-out-2023-pr... [5] https://electrek.co/2022/03/22/electric-cars-3-to-6-times-cheaper-to-drive-us-high-gas-prices/ https://electrek.co/2022/03/22/electric-cars-3-to-6-times-ch...

timapplesauce 4y ago
That’s a very “let them eat cake” attitude that doesn’t serve anyone well. EVs are simply not an option for the majority of people in the world until their cost decreases and their range increases. Fossil fuels need to be phased out but forcing gas prices up this fast is a very cruel way to do it.
lttlrck 4y ago
Spoken by someone with enough money to have owned multiple Tesla's IIRC.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  The comment was focused on those who can afford an EV but choose not to get one, not those who cannot afford one. Nuance. Consider it in the context of the comment above it, complaining that it takes a bit longer to charge than fueling a combustion vehicle. Citation 5 in my above comment even shows EVs to be 3-6 times cheaper to operate. We want to help the poor; enact a carbon tax and rebate scheme. Let wealthy carbon consumers buy low income folks EVs. They are unable to afford them on their own. I have a great deal of compassion for genuine hardship. I do not have compassion for voluntary suboptimal economic decisions by people of means out of a minimal amount of convenience sacrificed.
  - timapplesauce 4y ago
    > I have a great deal of compassion for genuine hardship. The rapid increase in gas prices is causing a lot of genuine hardship. Not to mention the follow on effects of higher consumer prices for essentials like food.
  - clouddrover 4y ago
    > I do not have compassion for voluntary suboptimal economic decisions by people of means out of a minimal amount of convenience sacrificed No, you have a lot of compassion for suboptimal economic decisions. For example, you advocate for charging infrastructure that only charges one brand of EV even though that is clearly a suboptimal economic decision that builds dumb infrastructure with less utility. Worse than that, you mock the low price of the Chevy Bolt even though it's a good hatchback with decent range for an EV. If you genuinely want to help the poor then you want to advocate for infrastructure that can charge all EVs regardless of brand. That way when people eventually buy one of the low price EVs of the world it can be charged just as easily as a high priced EV. Common infrastructure helps everyone, rich and poor alike. Brand exclusive infrastructure helps only the few.

glennpratt 4y ago

> an EV is very compelling as a secondary vehicle This is a strange way to think about it. Our secondary vehicle has a huge gas tank and other things we need rarely. Our primary vehicle has what we need day to day, just enough seats for the family and space for groceries.

timapplesauce 4y ago
I meant secondary as in a second vehicle so as long as you own an ICE vehicle already. I’m sure if I had an EV it would absolutely get the most usage of the 2. If I dropped $35-50,000 on a car you bet I’d drive it a lot! :)