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It is good to see languages like Crystal and Julia having both a compiler and an interpreter. I would really like to see a hybrid approach, where an interprete

It is good to see languages like Crystal and Julia having both a compiler and an interpreter. I would really like to see a hybrid approach, where an interpreter is used for the outer loop and a compiler for the inner loop. I believe Guile takes this approach by automatically compiling frequently called functions.

Calavar 4y ago
You mean a JIT? Or are you talking about something else, like some sort of hybrid interpreter/AOT compilation?
- convolvatron 4y ago
  old lisp implementations allowed you to freely intermix compiled and interpreted code. it wasn't compiled on demand, each function could independently be compiled AOT. and dynamically replaced with an interpreted or compiled version
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    Why the past tense? That capability is very much still present in modern implementations.
    - convolvatron 4y ago
      sorry - its me thats past tense. didn't want to presume that things are still done that way. fwiw i don't why more environments don't have the same flexibility.
iostream24 4y ago
Important to note that this is a modality, not the primary way to execute crystal code in production, which remains building a binary executable. This saves compilation time while developing at the expense of performance. The runtime performance of crystal executables are great, of course, comparable with C or C++ in the given web development domain, of course, where the Boehm GC isn’t a problem, given the request response cycle and the standard lib http and socket objects, etc
- Zababa 4y ago
  > The runtime performance of crystal executables are great, of course, comparable with C or C++ in the given web development domain I don't think that's true. Crystal seems to be more in the ballpark of Go or Java:https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/ https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/
  - vanviegen 4y ago
    Isn't that the same ballpark?
    - suby 4y ago
      It's close but you do pay a performance cost for garbage collection (with Go, Java, and Crystal all being garbage collected). There are some benchmarks at the following link, but note that many of the examples are hyper-optimized so you should look at the implementations to make sure the results aren't misleading. As an example though if you don't want to click, the nbody benchmark clocks the slowest C++ program at 387ms compared to Crystal at 580ms https://programming-language-benchmarks.vercel.app/crystal-vs-cpp https://programming-language-benchmarks.vercel.app/crystal-v...
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - vegai_ 4y ago
        That's an incredible achievement for Crystal given how high-level that language is. But you're right technically of course.
chrisseaton 4y ago
> where an interpreter is used for the outer loop and a compiler for the inner loop That's just a standard JIT isn't it? Also - note there are multiple ways to automatically make a compiler from an interpreter, so really you just need the interpreter.
- rgrmrts 4y ago
  What's a good starting point for someone to study that? Specifically going from an interpreter to a compiler automatically. Are there any special considerations before implementing the interpreter? I'm vaguely familiar with RPython which I think delivers on that. For context: I'm just a hobbyist interested in PLs and want to learn more about JITs, I found Crafting Interpreters super helpful for a lot of foundational knowledge.
  - chrisseaton 4y ago
    Yeah RPython and Truffle/Graal are the two major implementations of this idea today. https://www3.hhu.de/stups/downloads/pdf/BoCuFiRi09_246.pdf https://www3.hhu.de/stups/downloads/pdf/BoCuFiRi09_246.pdf https://chrisseaton.com/truffleruby/pldi17-truffle/pldi17-truffle.pdf https://chrisseaton.com/truffleruby/pldi17-truffle/pldi17-tr...
  - comment500 4y ago
    ChakraCore, the former JavaScript engine of Microsoft's Edge browser, has in its repo a decent high-level description of how its JIT compilation is integrated: https://github.com/chakra-core/ChakraCore/wiki/Architecture-Overview https://github.com/chakra-core/ChakraCore/wiki/Architecture-... I found the source code to be quite readable too, last time I delved into it. Also its command line tool ("ch"), when compiled in debug mode, has loads of options available to show what it's doing internally when it executes a JavaScript program.
- moonchild 4y ago
  Some jits have a very cheap baseline compiler. This is nice vs the interpreter because you don't need to worry about abi.

Calavar 4y ago

You mean a JIT? Or are you talking about something else, like some sort of hybrid interpreter/AOT compilation?

convolvatron 4y ago
old lisp implementations allowed you to freely intermix compiled and interpreted code. it wasn't compiled on demand, each function could independently be compiled AOT. and dynamically replaced with an interpreted or compiled version
- pjmlp 4y ago
  Why the past tense? That capability is very much still present in modern implementations.
  - convolvatron 4y ago
    sorry - its me thats past tense. didn't want to presume that things are still done that way. fwiw i don't why more environments don't have the same flexibility.

iostream24 4y ago

Important to note that this is a modality, not the primary way to execute crystal code in production, which remains building a binary executable. This saves compilation time while developing at the expense of performance. The runtime performance of crystal executables are great, of course, comparable with C or C++ in the given web development domain, of course, where the Boehm GC isn’t a problem, given the request response cycle and the standard lib http and socket objects, etc

Zababa 4y ago
> The runtime performance of crystal executables are great, of course, comparable with C or C++ in the given web development domain I don't think that's true. Crystal seems to be more in the ballpark of Go or Java:https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/ https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/
- vanviegen 4y ago
  Isn't that the same ballpark?
  - suby 4y ago
    It's close but you do pay a performance cost for garbage collection (with Go, Java, and Crystal all being garbage collected). There are some benchmarks at the following link, but note that many of the examples are hyper-optimized so you should look at the implementations to make sure the results aren't misleading. As an example though if you don't want to click, the nbody benchmark clocks the slowest C++ program at 387ms compared to Crystal at 580ms https://programming-language-benchmarks.vercel.app/crystal-vs-cpp https://programming-language-benchmarks.vercel.app/crystal-v...
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - vegai_ 4y ago
      That's an incredible achievement for Crystal given how high-level that language is. But you're right technically of course.

chrisseaton 4y ago

> where an interpreter is used for the outer loop and a compiler for the inner loop That's just a standard JIT isn't it? Also - note there are multiple ways to automatically make a compiler from an interpreter, so really you just need the interpreter.

rgrmrts 4y ago
What's a good starting point for someone to study that? Specifically going from an interpreter to a compiler automatically. Are there any special considerations before implementing the interpreter? I'm vaguely familiar with RPython which I think delivers on that. For context: I'm just a hobbyist interested in PLs and want to learn more about JITs, I found Crafting Interpreters super helpful for a lot of foundational knowledge.
- chrisseaton 4y ago
  Yeah RPython and Truffle/Graal are the two major implementations of this idea today. https://www3.hhu.de/stups/downloads/pdf/BoCuFiRi09_246.pdf https://www3.hhu.de/stups/downloads/pdf/BoCuFiRi09_246.pdf https://chrisseaton.com/truffleruby/pldi17-truffle/pldi17-truffle.pdf https://chrisseaton.com/truffleruby/pldi17-truffle/pldi17-tr...
- comment500 4y ago
  ChakraCore, the former JavaScript engine of Microsoft's Edge browser, has in its repo a decent high-level description of how its JIT compilation is integrated: https://github.com/chakra-core/ChakraCore/wiki/Architecture-Overview https://github.com/chakra-core/ChakraCore/wiki/Architecture-... I found the source code to be quite readable too, last time I delved into it. Also its command line tool ("ch"), when compiled in debug mode, has loads of options available to show what it's doing internally when it executes a JavaScript program.
moonchild 4y ago
Some jits have a very cheap baseline compiler. This is nice vs the interpreter because you don't need to worry about abi.