5 ms·

My only issue with the staunch anti-abortion stance is that there have been women who have died because the doctors couldn't decide quickly enough whether an ab

by LocalH 4y ago

My only issue with the staunch anti-abortion stance is that there have been women who have died because the doctors couldn't decide quickly enough whether an abortion was medically necessary, or outright refused anyway. There have been politicians who have espoused the opinion that ectopic pregnancies also have a "right to life" even though it is physically impossible for them to be viable, and cannot be implanted into the uterus to the best of my knowledge. It also opens the possibility that women who have a legitimate miscarriage may be scrutinized as if they were criminals, adding to their trauma. There is no easy answer there. I will say this - in no other situation is it even tenable to force a person to use a part of their body to keep another person alive. Even corpses have autonomy - if the person decides when they're alive that they don't want to be an organ donor, we cannot in good conscience then take their organs anyway. Should pregnant women have less autonomy than a dead body?

chungy 4y ago
> It also opens the possibility that women who have a legitimate miscarriage may be scrutinized as if they were criminals, adding to their trauma. That has literally never been a thing considered by anyone outside the pro-abortion circles. Miscarriages are clearly not the intention of anybody. It may be ending a life, but without the intent and without any act of killing it, it definitionally cannot be murder (the deliberate and unjustified killing of another human).
- hotpotamus 4y ago
  What if a woman takes a drug that causes her to miscarry?
  - chungy 4y ago
    Then it'll depend on the intent.
    - hotpotamus 4y ago
      And how would you determine the intent?
      - chungy 4y ago
        What is the drug designed for and why was it taken? There are drugs designed to cause a miscarriage and commonly called "abortion pills." That would be intentful. But, say, a woman takes ibuprofen for a headache and it happens to have nasty side effects. That would not be intentful. (I don't know if ibuprofen can do this, but feel free to slot in nearly any other drug.)
        hotpotamus 4y ago
        Ok, let's say a woman takes an abortion pill and then has a miscarriage. How will you determine that she should be prosecuted?
        LocalH 4y ago
        This is my concern. With abortion being a crime, the only way to determine whether a miscarriage happened in this fashion is to intrude into the woman's personal life, unless there is other clear and obvious evidence. This is where search history and other communication will be inspected.
        hotpotamus 4y ago
        Yeah, I think things are going to get weird here. Where I live, South Texas, I can actually get to a more abortion friendly country more quickly than I can get to an abortion friendly state now. I can also order drugs online paid for with cryptocurrency (which I actually do already because I take a DIY approach to medicine). But I doubt the pro-lifers will be happy with this situation and that frustration is going to find an outlet.
- danaris 4y ago
  This is untrue. There are women in prison right now because they had miscarriages that they could not "prove" were not their fault.
  - sparrish 4y ago
    Citation, please. This is a grandiose claim.
    - danaris 4y ago
      OK, since apparently you can't use a search engine, here's the first result on DDG for "woman imprisoned for miscarriage": https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59214544 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59214544
- LocalH 4y ago
  Based on the historical behavior of the US government, I honestly don't trust that it won't happen. Every woman might not be targeted, but some will, and that is deplorable.
- Calavar 4y ago
  They were talking about being scrutinized as a criminal. You seem to be talking about being tried as a criminal under the law, which is a very different thing. People with miscarriages are already scrutinized as potential criminals. Some examples: * Several pharmacies in Texas refused to fill misoprostol prescriptions because they weren't sure whethet it was being prescribed for a legal abortion or an illegal one. You may think that sounds rational, but how often does a pharmacist reduse to fill, say, oxycodone, even though it is a drug that is often used illegally. How often are people who pick up oxycodone asked about what they plan do do with it? There is seems to be a different standard being applied here. * There is at least one pharmacy in Texas that has refused to fill misoprostol for ectopic pregnancies as a matter of policy. * Even in states where elective abortions are still legal, just go go to any planned parenthood. The protestors outside won't ask if you're there for a completion D&C before they shout "baby killer" at you.
  - areyousure 4y ago
    In case anyone is curious, pharmacies routinely refuse to fill opiate prescriptions: https://www.practicalpainmanagement.com/resources/ethics/when-opioid-prescriptions-are-denied https://www.practicalpainmanagement.com/resources/ethics/whe... Walmart is proud that their pharmacists refuse to fill prescriptions: https://corporate.walmart.com/newsroom/2020/12/22/a-misguided-department-of-justice-lawsuit-forces-pharmacists-between-patients-and-their-doctors https://corporate.walmart.com/newsroom/2020/12/22/a-misguide... > Walmart has blocked thousands of questionable doctors from having their opioid prescriptions filled by any of our pharmacists
    - Calavar 4y ago
      I am well aware that pharmacists can and do refuse to fill opioid prescriptions. The difference is that they refuse to fill opioid prescriptions based on fill patterns that are suspicious for criminal activity: If one person came in with an oxycodone prescription from Dr. A last month and Dr. B last week and from Dr. C today, that triggers some alarm bells and the pharmacist may refuse to fill the prescription. If Dr. A is writing 10x more opioid prescriptions than any other physician, that may also raise suspicion. What a pharmacist does NOT do is refuse to fill an opioid because they think the prescriber or the patient is being dishonest about the prescribing reason even though they don't have any specific evidence to support that. What a pharmacist does NOT do is refuse to fill an opioid because in their opinion it is unethical to take opioids for any reason, even reasons that are considered medical standard of care. But that is exactly what happens with misoprostol. Some examples: Refusing to prescribe due to ethical beliefs: > A Walgreens pharmacist refused to provide an Arizona woman with miscarriage medication, citing his ethical beliefs.... Several days before going to Walgreens to pick up the medicine, Arteaga’s doctor told her that there was no fetal heartbeat and she would have a miscarriage.... Walgreens said in a statement that the company had contacted Arteaga and apologized for the handling of the situation. However, the pharmacy chain noted that the pharmacist had not violated its policy with his refusal. Source: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/25/walgreens-pharmacist-refused-womans-prescription-for-mis-carriage-meds.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/25/walgreens-pharmacist-refused... Side note - This is a miscarriage. What ethical beliefs apply when the fetus is already dead? Refusing to prescribe due to not believing the patient and/or prescriber: > A Michigan woman says a pharmacist for a regional supermarket chain denied her medication prescribed to treat her miscarriage because it was against his religious beliefs.... He could not “in good conscience fill the prescription” because he thought she wanted to use it to end her pregnancy, the letter states.... Peterson explained to Kalkman that her doctor said the fetus was not viable, but he responded “that was just [her] word," the letter says. Source: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/meijer-pharmacist-denies-michigan-woman-miscarriage-medication-citing-religious-beliefs-n921711 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/meijer-pharmacist-denie... Refusing to prescribe with no explanation at all, even when the indication is universally uncontroversial: > One Austin pharmacy chain sent a letter to doctors in December saying it would no longer provide methotrexate, even for ectopic pregnancies.... “I have interviewed 20 practicing OB-GYNs, and almost all of them have said they had a patient who could not get a prescription filled at a pharmacy when they had an ectopic pregnancy,” said Dr. Charles Brown, the Texas representative on the board of directors for the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists. Source: https://archive.ph/UWtgu https://archive.ph/UWtgu
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

by LocalH 4y ago

chungy 4y ago

> It also opens the possibility that women who have a legitimate miscarriage may be scrutinized as if they were criminals, adding to their trauma. That has literally never been a thing considered by anyone outside the pro-abortion circles. Miscarriages are clearly not the intention of anybody. It may be ending a life, but without the intent and without any act of killing it, it definitionally cannot be murder (the deliberate and unjustified killing of another human).

hotpotamus 4y ago
What if a woman takes a drug that causes her to miscarry?
- chungy 4y ago
  Then it'll depend on the intent.
  - hotpotamus 4y ago
    And how would you determine the intent?
    - chungy 4y ago
      What is the drug designed for and why was it taken? There are drugs designed to cause a miscarriage and commonly called "abortion pills." That would be intentful. But, say, a woman takes ibuprofen for a headache and it happens to have nasty side effects. That would not be intentful. (I don't know if ibuprofen can do this, but feel free to slot in nearly any other drug.)
      - hotpotamus 4y ago
        Ok, let's say a woman takes an abortion pill and then has a miscarriage. How will you determine that she should be prosecuted?
        LocalH 4y ago
        This is my concern. With abortion being a crime, the only way to determine whether a miscarriage happened in this fashion is to intrude into the woman's personal life, unless there is other clear and obvious evidence. This is where search history and other communication will be inspected.
        hotpotamus 4y ago
        Yeah, I think things are going to get weird here. Where I live, South Texas, I can actually get to a more abortion friendly country more quickly than I can get to an abortion friendly state now. I can also order drugs online paid for with cryptocurrency (which I actually do already because I take a DIY approach to medicine). But I doubt the pro-lifers will be happy with this situation and that frustration is going to find an outlet.
danaris 4y ago
This is untrue. There are women in prison right now because they had miscarriages that they could not "prove" were not their fault.
- sparrish 4y ago
  Citation, please. This is a grandiose claim.
  - danaris 4y ago
    OK, since apparently you can't use a search engine, here's the first result on DDG for "woman imprisoned for miscarriage": https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59214544 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59214544
LocalH 4y ago
Based on the historical behavior of the US government, I honestly don't trust that it won't happen. Every woman might not be targeted, but some will, and that is deplorable.
Calavar 4y ago
They were talking about being scrutinized as a criminal. You seem to be talking about being tried as a criminal under the law, which is a very different thing. People with miscarriages are already scrutinized as potential criminals. Some examples: * Several pharmacies in Texas refused to fill misoprostol prescriptions because they weren't sure whethet it was being prescribed for a legal abortion or an illegal one. You may think that sounds rational, but how often does a pharmacist reduse to fill, say, oxycodone, even though it is a drug that is often used illegally. How often are people who pick up oxycodone asked about what they plan do do with it? There is seems to be a different standard being applied here. * There is at least one pharmacy in Texas that has refused to fill misoprostol for ectopic pregnancies as a matter of policy. * Even in states where elective abortions are still legal, just go go to any planned parenthood. The protestors outside won't ask if you're there for a completion D&C before they shout "baby killer" at you.
- areyousure 4y ago
  In case anyone is curious, pharmacies routinely refuse to fill opiate prescriptions: https://www.practicalpainmanagement.com/resources/ethics/when-opioid-prescriptions-are-denied https://www.practicalpainmanagement.com/resources/ethics/whe... Walmart is proud that their pharmacists refuse to fill prescriptions: https://corporate.walmart.com/newsroom/2020/12/22/a-misguided-department-of-justice-lawsuit-forces-pharmacists-between-patients-and-their-doctors https://corporate.walmart.com/newsroom/2020/12/22/a-misguide... > Walmart has blocked thousands of questionable doctors from having their opioid prescriptions filled by any of our pharmacists
  - Calavar 4y ago
    I am well aware that pharmacists can and do refuse to fill opioid prescriptions. The difference is that they refuse to fill opioid prescriptions based on fill patterns that are suspicious for criminal activity: If one person came in with an oxycodone prescription from Dr. A last month and Dr. B last week and from Dr. C today, that triggers some alarm bells and the pharmacist may refuse to fill the prescription. If Dr. A is writing 10x more opioid prescriptions than any other physician, that may also raise suspicion. What a pharmacist does NOT do is refuse to fill an opioid because they think the prescriber or the patient is being dishonest about the prescribing reason even though they don't have any specific evidence to support that. What a pharmacist does NOT do is refuse to fill an opioid because in their opinion it is unethical to take opioids for any reason, even reasons that are considered medical standard of care. But that is exactly what happens with misoprostol. Some examples: Refusing to prescribe due to ethical beliefs: > A Walgreens pharmacist refused to provide an Arizona woman with miscarriage medication, citing his ethical beliefs.... Several days before going to Walgreens to pick up the medicine, Arteaga’s doctor told her that there was no fetal heartbeat and she would have a miscarriage.... Walgreens said in a statement that the company had contacted Arteaga and apologized for the handling of the situation. However, the pharmacy chain noted that the pharmacist had not violated its policy with his refusal. Source: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/25/walgreens-pharmacist-refused-womans-prescription-for-mis-carriage-meds.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/25/walgreens-pharmacist-refused... Side note - This is a miscarriage. What ethical beliefs apply when the fetus is already dead? Refusing to prescribe due to not believing the patient and/or prescriber: > A Michigan woman says a pharmacist for a regional supermarket chain denied her medication prescribed to treat her miscarriage because it was against his religious beliefs.... He could not “in good conscience fill the prescription” because he thought she wanted to use it to end her pregnancy, the letter states.... Peterson explained to Kalkman that her doctor said the fetus was not viable, but he responded “that was just [her] word," the letter says. Source: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/meijer-pharmacist-denies-michigan-woman-miscarriage-medication-citing-religious-beliefs-n921711 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/meijer-pharmacist-denie... Refusing to prescribe with no explanation at all, even when the indication is universally uncontroversial: > One Austin pharmacy chain sent a letter to doctors in December saying it would no longer provide methotrexate, even for ectopic pregnancies.... “I have interviewed 20 practicing OB-GYNs, and almost all of them have said they had a patient who could not get a prescription filled at a pharmacy when they had an ectopic pregnancy,” said Dr. Charles Brown, the Texas representative on the board of directors for the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists. Source: https://archive.ph/UWtgu https://archive.ph/UWtgu

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]