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Nobody thinks abortions are contraception. Women and other people who can get pregnant are smarter than that.

dymk 4y ago
Imagine getting downvoted for the radical opinion that females aren’t complete idiots when it comes to what an abortion involves
- trasz 4y ago
  Millions of people are being conditioned by their religion to believe exactly this.
  - raxxorraxor 4y ago
    The German constitution still views abortion as unjust towards the aborted child in any case. That doesn't mean it is an illegal practice. While the conservative party indeed has the name christian in their name, abortion never was a religious debate in Germany. Hell, I don't think neither is it in the US really. Sure, fundamentalists will reject it, but this isn't too relevant to overall opposition. Maybe I am wrong here, but it doesn't look like it at all.
    - trasz 4y ago
      German court declared so half a century ago, but a quick look at the source ("(2) Every person shall have the right to life and physical integrity") shows that this is not true - the only way one can conflict with the other is under assumption of catholic shibboleth of "life from conception", ie the theory that zygote is a person.
      - raxxorraxor 4y ago
        Germany may be a bit behind here but the point at which a fetus transforms into a human isn't too relevant at first. Formally all abortions are unjust towards the (potential) person, no matter how early or late the abortion happens. The question of when human lives begins can be a religious argument but it may as well be not. In the same vein the valuation of human life to be precious is either religious or ideological as well.
        trasz 4y ago
        >Formally all abortions are unjust towards the (potential) person Are contraceptives unjust towards the potential person too? >The question of when human lives begins can be a religious argument but it may as well be not. Sure - and in this case the court silently assumed the Catholic ideology.
        raxxorraxor 4y ago
        > Are contraceptives unjust towards the potential person too? No, the line is drawn after that. It isn't my line either, just how the law sees it. You could argue this to be bad or not, some women complain that the bureaucracy around it made them feel like criminals but others argue that this is normal for German bureaucracy. > Sure - and in this case the court silently assumed the Catholic ideology. And probably protestant and orthodox Christians too. As well as Jews, Buddhists, Hindu and some others. While religion is a good predictor, the reasoning not necessarily is and there are also secular people against abortion as well. I think the court reasoned with a technicality of the law, but I am no expert.
        trasz 4y ago
        The line is drawn where it is because of false assumption based purely on Catholic mythology. Does German law prohibit revisiting past verdicts? >And probably protestant and orthodox Christians too. As well as Jews, Buddhists, Hindu and some others. To many protestants, Jews, Buddhists and Hindu the idea of "life from conception" is no different from what the idea of sacred cows is to Christians. >there are also secular people against abortion as well. There are also secular people against vaccines. There are no valid, non-religious arguments for "life from conception", it's just a superstition invented by a certain religion.
        raxxorraxor 4y ago
        Wrong or not, it is simply not true that these considerations are specifically based on catholic faith. I believe that is a primitive image of a fictitious enemy.
- tut-urut-utut 4y ago
  Some women are idiots. Also, some man are idiots. Not everyone is a smart educated self aware kind of person. PS: also some diverse, trans, queer, gay, lesbians, cis, … are idiots. I don’t want to leave out anyone excluded. We are all humans, after all.
  - dathinab 4y ago
    People being imperfect is why you are required to go through a consulting session and then have to wait 3(?) days to think about it. (which is one of the weaknesses of the law as the state could cause an situation where getting the consulting is practically unlikely by withholding accreditation, but this is currently not the case at all as far as I know. Through this is if I remember correctly why pro-choice advocates had been against such approaches as at least some republican states can be expected to do exactly that, as it has shown in some other contexts) Anyway this is NOT a reason to massively constraint the freedom and choice about their own body of a woman. Especially if it might threaten their live. And yes some republican states abortion laws (which are now in effect again I think) do in-practice even prevent abortions all the time which are necessary for the health of the mother, even in cases where there is no or hardly any choice for a child to be born alive even when the mother spends most here time in intensive care of doctors (which most people can't afford anyway)). And if anything is clear then that a lot of republicans (of which have influence) want to make abortion impossible, partially by law and partially by making it practically impossible in 9 out of 10 cases where it is allowed by law (and wanted). Lastly you could do the same argument for: - driving cars, idiots driving car kill a _lot_ of people, including children every year (well more like week) - having anything weaponizeable from large knives to guns, the amount of children dying because of idiots mishandling guns isn't that small either - etc. etc. - also for the ridiculousness: Idiots rising children kill them all the time, too. So surely you should take children away from any adult which isn't socially well established.y EDIT: Oh forgot the most important part, just because someone is a idiot they shouldn't have less rights.
    - tut-urut-utut 4y ago
      I think I didn't express myself clearly enough. I don't think anyone should be deprived of its rights, just because they are an idiot. Even idiots should be allowed to do idiotic things, unless they do the harm to other individuals. I was just referring to the parent comment that "women are not idiots" which is false. All people can be idiots, regardless of gender. My comment that you replied to was also idiotic, since I clearly didn't express myself clear enough.
viraptor 4y ago
That was not the original claim. Sure, you're right, but... that's not related?
331c8c71 4y ago
"Other people who can get pregnant" made my day.
- nathanaldensr 4y ago
  You WILL accept the redefinition of common words. /s
  - dymk 4y ago
    Medical science has recognized the distinction between the gender identity one feels comfortable with, and the biological sex one is born with for a long time now. Time already marched on, my friend.
  - 331c8c71 4y ago
    Still pushing to "master" despite all the hype
- Kaze404 4y ago
  You can kick and scream all you want, but trans men exist and very much do get pregnant.
  - hellojesus 4y ago
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
readthenotes1 4y ago
Right, because nobody thinks abortion prevents pregnancy, at least nobody who knows what the word contraceptive means. But as an alternative to contraception for birth control? Certainly. E. G., https://www.guttmacher.org/article/2018/01/reported-contraceptive-use-month-becoming-pregnant-among-us-abortion-patients-2000 https://www.guttmacher.org/article/2018/01/reported-contrace...
jzackpete 4y ago
What percentage of abortions are elective?

dymk 4y ago

Imagine getting downvoted for the radical opinion that females aren’t complete idiots when it comes to what an abortion involves

trasz 4y ago
Millions of people are being conditioned by their religion to believe exactly this.
- raxxorraxor 4y ago
  The German constitution still views abortion as unjust towards the aborted child in any case. That doesn't mean it is an illegal practice. While the conservative party indeed has the name christian in their name, abortion never was a religious debate in Germany. Hell, I don't think neither is it in the US really. Sure, fundamentalists will reject it, but this isn't too relevant to overall opposition. Maybe I am wrong here, but it doesn't look like it at all.
  - trasz 4y ago
    German court declared so half a century ago, but a quick look at the source ("(2) Every person shall have the right to life and physical integrity") shows that this is not true - the only way one can conflict with the other is under assumption of catholic shibboleth of "life from conception", ie the theory that zygote is a person.
    - raxxorraxor 4y ago
      Germany may be a bit behind here but the point at which a fetus transforms into a human isn't too relevant at first. Formally all abortions are unjust towards the (potential) person, no matter how early or late the abortion happens. The question of when human lives begins can be a religious argument but it may as well be not. In the same vein the valuation of human life to be precious is either religious or ideological as well.
      - trasz 4y ago
        >Formally all abortions are unjust towards the (potential) person Are contraceptives unjust towards the potential person too? >The question of when human lives begins can be a religious argument but it may as well be not. Sure - and in this case the court silently assumed the Catholic ideology.
        raxxorraxor 4y ago
        > Are contraceptives unjust towards the potential person too? No, the line is drawn after that. It isn't my line either, just how the law sees it. You could argue this to be bad or not, some women complain that the bureaucracy around it made them feel like criminals but others argue that this is normal for German bureaucracy. > Sure - and in this case the court silently assumed the Catholic ideology. And probably protestant and orthodox Christians too. As well as Jews, Buddhists, Hindu and some others. While religion is a good predictor, the reasoning not necessarily is and there are also secular people against abortion as well. I think the court reasoned with a technicality of the law, but I am no expert.
        trasz 4y ago
        The line is drawn where it is because of false assumption based purely on Catholic mythology. Does German law prohibit revisiting past verdicts? >And probably protestant and orthodox Christians too. As well as Jews, Buddhists, Hindu and some others. To many protestants, Jews, Buddhists and Hindu the idea of "life from conception" is no different from what the idea of sacred cows is to Christians. >there are also secular people against abortion as well. There are also secular people against vaccines. There are no valid, non-religious arguments for "life from conception", it's just a superstition invented by a certain religion.
        raxxorraxor 4y ago
        Wrong or not, it is simply not true that these considerations are specifically based on catholic faith. I believe that is a primitive image of a fictitious enemy.
tut-urut-utut 4y ago
Some women are idiots. Also, some man are idiots. Not everyone is a smart educated self aware kind of person. PS: also some diverse, trans, queer, gay, lesbians, cis, … are idiots. I don’t want to leave out anyone excluded. We are all humans, after all.
- dathinab 4y ago
  People being imperfect is why you are required to go through a consulting session and then have to wait 3(?) days to think about it. (which is one of the weaknesses of the law as the state could cause an situation where getting the consulting is practically unlikely by withholding accreditation, but this is currently not the case at all as far as I know. Through this is if I remember correctly why pro-choice advocates had been against such approaches as at least some republican states can be expected to do exactly that, as it has shown in some other contexts) Anyway this is NOT a reason to massively constraint the freedom and choice about their own body of a woman. Especially if it might threaten their live. And yes some republican states abortion laws (which are now in effect again I think) do in-practice even prevent abortions all the time which are necessary for the health of the mother, even in cases where there is no or hardly any choice for a child to be born alive even when the mother spends most here time in intensive care of doctors (which most people can't afford anyway)). And if anything is clear then that a lot of republicans (of which have influence) want to make abortion impossible, partially by law and partially by making it practically impossible in 9 out of 10 cases where it is allowed by law (and wanted). Lastly you could do the same argument for: - driving cars, idiots driving car kill a _lot_ of people, including children every year (well more like week) - having anything weaponizeable from large knives to guns, the amount of children dying because of idiots mishandling guns isn't that small either - etc. etc. - also for the ridiculousness: Idiots rising children kill them all the time, too. So surely you should take children away from any adult which isn't socially well established.y EDIT: Oh forgot the most important part, just because someone is a idiot they shouldn't have less rights.
  - tut-urut-utut 4y ago
    I think I didn't express myself clearly enough. I don't think anyone should be deprived of its rights, just because they are an idiot. Even idiots should be allowed to do idiotic things, unless they do the harm to other individuals. I was just referring to the parent comment that "women are not idiots" which is false. All people can be idiots, regardless of gender. My comment that you replied to was also idiotic, since I clearly didn't express myself clear enough.

viraptor 4y ago

That was not the original claim. Sure, you're right, but... that's not related?

331c8c71 4y ago

"Other people who can get pregnant" made my day.

nathanaldensr 4y ago
You WILL accept the redefinition of common words. /s
- dymk 4y ago
  Medical science has recognized the distinction between the gender identity one feels comfortable with, and the biological sex one is born with for a long time now. Time already marched on, my friend.
- 331c8c71 4y ago
  Still pushing to "master" despite all the hype
Kaze404 4y ago
You can kick and scream all you want, but trans men exist and very much do get pregnant.
- hellojesus 4y ago
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]

readthenotes1 4y ago

Right, because nobody thinks abortion prevents pregnancy, at least nobody who knows what the word contraceptive means. But as an alternative to contraception for birth control? Certainly. E. G., https://www.guttmacher.org/article/2018/01/reported-contraceptive-use-month-becoming-pregnant-among-us-abortion-patients-2000 https://www.guttmacher.org/article/2018/01/reported-contrace...

jzackpete 4y ago

What percentage of abortions are elective?