7 ms·

Because the right wing were organising insurrections?

by multjoy 4y ago

coffeeblack 4y ago
Do people really unironically believe that?
- dTal 4y ago
  That's pretty disingenuous, considering that the House Select Committee on the January 6 Attack is currently headline news.
  - leereeves 4y ago
    Have people forgotten 2016 so quickly? The left had a nationwide movement named "Occupy" and the Democrats and most media approved. The right did it once and the same people all lost their minds.
    - krapp 4y ago
      Occupy was a series of legal protests, as opposed to a violent insurrectionist plot to subvert the legal transfer of power with sympathizers within the government. These are not the same.
      - leereeves 4y ago
        Legal? Most occupy occupations were dismantled by the police, even in progressive cities like Oakland and Portland. Perhaps the police were wrong and the protestors had a right to occupy, but if so, why didn't the protestors on Jan 6 also have a right to occupy the Capitol? Violent? The only violence on January 6th was between police and protestors. There was plenty of similar violence at Occupy protests, but the Occupy protests also had other kinds of violence, like Sexual Assaults Reported in 'Occupy' Camps[1] Insurrectionist? "The FBI at this point believes the violence [on January 6th] was not centrally coordinated...there was no grand scheme...to storm the Capitol and take hostages."[2] Sympathizers within the government? Like Obama?[3] An attempt to disrupt the normal functioning of government? Yes, both were. That's actually a common protest tactic - protesters generally argue that a protest has to be disruptive to be effective. 1: https://abcnews.go.com/us/sexual-assaults-occupy-wall-street-camps/story?id=14873014 https://abcnews.go.com/us/sexual-assaults-occupy-wall-street... 2: https://www.reuters.com/world/us/exclusive-fbi-finds-scant-evidence-us-capitol-attack-was-coordinated-sources-2021-08-20/ https://www.reuters.com/world/us/exclusive-fbi-finds-scant-e... 3: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/obamas-risky-embrace-of-occupy-wall-street/2011/10/19/gIQA2pQf1L_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/obamas-risky-embrace...
    - SturgeonsLaw 4y ago
      The media undermined the Occupy protests, portraying them as a rudderless, rag-tag bunch of unemployed no-hopers seeking government handouts. The establishment media (millionaire mouthpieces for billionaires) is not going to assist any movement that actually threatens the establishment.
    - lapcat 4y ago
      > Have people forgotten 2016 so quickly? Occupy Wall Street was 2011. The crucial difference between January 6 and Occupy Wall Street is that the members of Congress and the Vice President were inside the Capitol Building on January 6, whereas no elected officials were in Zuccotti Park during Occupy Wall Street. If the break-in of the Capitol had occurred while it was empty, that would have been a different matter, still serious, but not giving the appearance of a coup attempt.
      - leereeves 4y ago
        Fair point. I shouldn't have made a silly joke about the name of that group when my real point was about the much bigger left-wing protest movement that peaked in 2016. The best example is perhaps the occupation of the Wisconsin state capital: > Thousands of protesters rushed to the … Capitol Wednesday night, forcing their way through doors, crawling through windows and jamming corridors...thousands of pro-union activists — many bused in from out of state — rampaged through the historic building in an effort to stop a vote on collective bargaining reform legislation. ... > during the course of the occupation, Walker received a steady stream of death threats against him and his wife, including one that promised to “gut her like a deer” and one threatening to kill his sons. Police found dozens of .22-caliber bullets scattered across the Capitol grounds. The occupiers drew chalk outlines of fake dead bodies etched with Walker’s name on the floor, and carried signs that read “Death to tyrants,” “The only good Republican is a dead Republican” and one with picture of him in crosshairs with the words, “Don’t retreat, Reload.” ... > House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) praised the occupiers for an “impressive show of democracy in action” and tweeted as they assaulted the Capitol that she continued “to stand in solidarity” with the union activists. In other words, Democrats were for occupying capitols before they were against it. https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/01/14/democrats-were-occupying-capitols-before-they-were-against-it/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/01/14/democrats...
        lapcat 4y ago
        > my real point was about the much bigger left-wing protest movement that peaked in 2016. I'm not sure why you keep mentioning 2016? The Wisconsin protests were also in 2011. Anyway, in Wisconsin they were protesting a proposed bill. It wasn't a coup attempt. I'm actually a Wisconsinite, so I'm very familiar with this. If you read the linked Wisconsin State Journal article, you'll see that the protests were peaceful. "Police and protesters continued to get along, with no incidents reported and no arrests." It wasn't actually a "break-in". What happened was that there were already some protesters who had been inside the Capitol for some time, and then a much larger crowd showed up that night and wanted to get in, because there was a vote on the bill scheduled soon. The police were initially reluctant to allow the larger crowd to enter but decided to allow them. There was no violence. https://madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/article_260247e0-4ac4-11e0-bfa9-001cc4c03286.html https://madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/article... Again, the issue isn't really protesting legislation in Capitol buildings. In general, that's a legitimate democratic activity. The issue is the safety of the members of Congress and the VP from a crowd on January 6 who wanted to overturn the results of the election that was about to be legally certified.
  - coffeeblack 4y ago
    “Attack”? With no weapons?
    - dTal 4y ago
      https://globalnews.ca/news/8902503/us-capitol-riot-jan-6-charges-explainer/ https://globalnews.ca/news/8902503/us-capitol-riot-jan-6-cha... "More than 250 people have been charged with assaulting or impeding law enforcement who were trying to protect the Capitol, including more than 85 accused of using a deadly or dangerous weapon or causing serious bodily injury to an officer. Others have been accused of assaulting members of the media, including one Associated Press photographer, or destroying media equipment." A trivial google search turns up this newsweek article, which lists half a dozen people indicted for firearms, including one who also had more guns than he could wield himself as well as molotov cocktails stashed in his van. https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-were-there-armed-protesters-capitol-january-6-1715326 https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-were-there-armed-protest...
      - coffeeblack 4y ago
        Typical deceptive article. It says “inside the Capitol or outside” and many paragraphs later concludes that none of the guns were actually taken inside. Also interesting that a handful of bad people carrying guns make everybody else a criminal. Is that the world you want to live in?
        effingwewt 4y ago
        That is the world we live in. Every movement or protest has people who resort to violence. Whether actual protesters, or whether infiltrated by someone looking to discredit the movement. Law enforcement is famous for it, and there are quite a few vidoes of them trying to 'start shit' so they can escalate. I don't know whether guns were used at Capitol Hill, I don't really care. It was an attempted violent coup. By the protesters, not infiltrators. I think the world has lost its marbles.
        4y ago
  - ThunderSizzle 4y ago
    Perhaps if Congress and media actually addressed voting fraud concerns rather than pretending that our elections magically became perfect now that a Democrat won something, then no one would have shown up. But as it is, it's unclear who won the election without fraud.
    - multjoy 4y ago
      >But as it is, it's unclear who won the election without fraud. No it isn't.
      - ThunderSizzle 4y ago
        Who won Georgia? Fulton County uploaded enough questionable votes to account for the number of votes Biden allegedly won by, a couple times over. That was never looked into before certification. Other states have similar problems.
- richbell 4y ago
  It's a convenient excuse. The reality is that the admins are continually clamping down on subreddits they don't like, without any justification or consistency. For example, one is left to wonder why /r/drama was forced to shut down because the admins considered them a nuisance, yet left-leaning subreddits engaging in vote-brigading and other equally disruptive behaviour are still around. I'd be remiss to claim that it's purely a left vs. right thing. But if the Aimee Challenor debacle was any indication, they have a clear list of people they like and people they don't like. And if they don't like you, for whatever reason, they eject you from the platform without any recourse.
- philistine 4y ago
  Because that's true. When American democracy is no more, and a republican administration has denied any other political party from holding political office, remember that no one cleaned house in the American right wing, and let everyone slowly turn into the fascists.
  - MrMan 4y ago
    - dpbriggs 4y ago
      Did you intend to be racist and inflammatory, or just inflammatory?
- teddyh 4y ago
  It sells news if people do, so news promotes this view: http://www.thewebcomicfactory.com/comic/the-antiwar-comic-insurrection-fever/ http://www.thewebcomicfactory.com/comic/the-antiwar-comic-in...
  - teddyh 4y ago
    Also: http://www.thewebcomicfactory.com/comic/the-antiwar-comic-one-mans-protester/ http://www.thewebcomicfactory.com/comic/the-antiwar-comic-on... http://www.thewebcomicfactory.com/comic/the-antiwar-comic-the-misinformation-war/ http://www.thewebcomicfactory.com/comic/the-antiwar-comic-th...
mardifoufs 4y ago
All of that happened before the 6th of January. If anything, reddit was pretty much scrubbed way before Jan 6th so that's a really disingenuous argument
swat535 4y ago
And yet the violent BLM mobs that literally set on fire and looted businesses and shops that had nothing to do with the actual cause were not only not condemned but also glorified and celebrated. You will not convince me that stealing TVs from target during riots that let to many unjustified injuries and deaths is about seeking justice. I’m not even American and this was completely obvious. Please let’s not pretend we don’t have extremism on both sides of the political compass. I have witness this behaviour on HN many times as well since this website leans overwhelmingly left; try saying anything remotely controversial and watch the downvotes ensue. I intentionally avoid speaking about my own views openly here out of fear of repercussion; especially because many users on this website run businesses and have the power to ruin my career and my livelihood. If it weren’t for dang, this place would descend to chaos just as well.
- MrMan 4y ago
- schrodinger 4y ago
  I live in NYC and was first-hand there for the BLM protests. Can attest that they were almost unilaterally peaceful from my anecdotal experience. The police were extreme in their responses. I was at Un Sq and ppl in the streets were just chanting "no justice, no peace" (but peacefully doing so, I suppose a bit of irony), and suddenly the police yelled out to disperse. I was off the to the side just to observe a moment of history, and watched ppl obey that order, yet personally got rammed by a police shield and hit with a baton because it just takes a crowd a certain amount of time to move. I was livid and saw police barbarity in action. There certainly were bad actors. I saw a police van lit on fire. But from what I read in the papers, these were prosecuted and out of staters coming to NY to basically get their rocks off. The overall movement was peaceful.
  - aqouta 4y ago
    I watched from my roof as someone rammed a moving van into multiple store fronts. I'm going to stick with my lying eyes.

Because the right wing were organising insurrections?

coffeeblack 4y ago

Do people really unironically believe that?

dTal 4y ago
That's pretty disingenuous, considering that the House Select Committee on the January 6 Attack is currently headline news.
- leereeves 4y ago
  Have people forgotten 2016 so quickly? The left had a nationwide movement named "Occupy" and the Democrats and most media approved. The right did it once and the same people all lost their minds.
  - krapp 4y ago
    Occupy was a series of legal protests, as opposed to a violent insurrectionist plot to subvert the legal transfer of power with sympathizers within the government. These are not the same.
    - leereeves 4y ago
      Legal? Most occupy occupations were dismantled by the police, even in progressive cities like Oakland and Portland. Perhaps the police were wrong and the protestors had a right to occupy, but if so, why didn't the protestors on Jan 6 also have a right to occupy the Capitol? Violent? The only violence on January 6th was between police and protestors. There was plenty of similar violence at Occupy protests, but the Occupy protests also had other kinds of violence, like Sexual Assaults Reported in 'Occupy' Camps[1] Insurrectionist? "The FBI at this point believes the violence [on January 6th] was not centrally coordinated...there was no grand scheme...to storm the Capitol and take hostages."[2] Sympathizers within the government? Like Obama?[3] An attempt to disrupt the normal functioning of government? Yes, both were. That's actually a common protest tactic - protesters generally argue that a protest has to be disruptive to be effective. 1: https://abcnews.go.com/us/sexual-assaults-occupy-wall-street-camps/story?id=14873014 https://abcnews.go.com/us/sexual-assaults-occupy-wall-street... 2: https://www.reuters.com/world/us/exclusive-fbi-finds-scant-evidence-us-capitol-attack-was-coordinated-sources-2021-08-20/ https://www.reuters.com/world/us/exclusive-fbi-finds-scant-e... 3: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/obamas-risky-embrace-of-occupy-wall-street/2011/10/19/gIQA2pQf1L_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/obamas-risky-embrace...
  - SturgeonsLaw 4y ago
    The media undermined the Occupy protests, portraying them as a rudderless, rag-tag bunch of unemployed no-hopers seeking government handouts. The establishment media (millionaire mouthpieces for billionaires) is not going to assist any movement that actually threatens the establishment.
  - lapcat 4y ago
    > Have people forgotten 2016 so quickly? Occupy Wall Street was 2011. The crucial difference between January 6 and Occupy Wall Street is that the members of Congress and the Vice President were inside the Capitol Building on January 6, whereas no elected officials were in Zuccotti Park during Occupy Wall Street. If the break-in of the Capitol had occurred while it was empty, that would have been a different matter, still serious, but not giving the appearance of a coup attempt.
    - leereeves 4y ago
      Fair point. I shouldn't have made a silly joke about the name of that group when my real point was about the much bigger left-wing protest movement that peaked in 2016. The best example is perhaps the occupation of the Wisconsin state capital: > Thousands of protesters rushed to the … Capitol Wednesday night, forcing their way through doors, crawling through windows and jamming corridors...thousands of pro-union activists — many bused in from out of state — rampaged through the historic building in an effort to stop a vote on collective bargaining reform legislation. ... > during the course of the occupation, Walker received a steady stream of death threats against him and his wife, including one that promised to “gut her like a deer” and one threatening to kill his sons. Police found dozens of .22-caliber bullets scattered across the Capitol grounds. The occupiers drew chalk outlines of fake dead bodies etched with Walker’s name on the floor, and carried signs that read “Death to tyrants,” “The only good Republican is a dead Republican” and one with picture of him in crosshairs with the words, “Don’t retreat, Reload.” ... > House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) praised the occupiers for an “impressive show of democracy in action” and tweeted as they assaulted the Capitol that she continued “to stand in solidarity” with the union activists. In other words, Democrats were for occupying capitols before they were against it. https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/01/14/democrats-were-occupying-capitols-before-they-were-against-it/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/01/14/democrats...
      - lapcat 4y ago
        > my real point was about the much bigger left-wing protest movement that peaked in 2016. I'm not sure why you keep mentioning 2016? The Wisconsin protests were also in 2011. Anyway, in Wisconsin they were protesting a proposed bill. It wasn't a coup attempt. I'm actually a Wisconsinite, so I'm very familiar with this. If you read the linked Wisconsin State Journal article, you'll see that the protests were peaceful. "Police and protesters continued to get along, with no incidents reported and no arrests." It wasn't actually a "break-in". What happened was that there were already some protesters who had been inside the Capitol for some time, and then a much larger crowd showed up that night and wanted to get in, because there was a vote on the bill scheduled soon. The police were initially reluctant to allow the larger crowd to enter but decided to allow them. There was no violence. https://madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/article_260247e0-4ac4-11e0-bfa9-001cc4c03286.html https://madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/article... Again, the issue isn't really protesting legislation in Capitol buildings. In general, that's a legitimate democratic activity. The issue is the safety of the members of Congress and the VP from a crowd on January 6 who wanted to overturn the results of the election that was about to be legally certified.
- coffeeblack 4y ago
  “Attack”? With no weapons?
  - dTal 4y ago
    https://globalnews.ca/news/8902503/us-capitol-riot-jan-6-charges-explainer/ https://globalnews.ca/news/8902503/us-capitol-riot-jan-6-cha... "More than 250 people have been charged with assaulting or impeding law enforcement who were trying to protect the Capitol, including more than 85 accused of using a deadly or dangerous weapon or causing serious bodily injury to an officer. Others have been accused of assaulting members of the media, including one Associated Press photographer, or destroying media equipment." A trivial google search turns up this newsweek article, which lists half a dozen people indicted for firearms, including one who also had more guns than he could wield himself as well as molotov cocktails stashed in his van. https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-were-there-armed-protesters-capitol-january-6-1715326 https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-were-there-armed-protest...
    - coffeeblack 4y ago
      Typical deceptive article. It says “inside the Capitol or outside” and many paragraphs later concludes that none of the guns were actually taken inside. Also interesting that a handful of bad people carrying guns make everybody else a criminal. Is that the world you want to live in?
      - effingwewt 4y ago
        That is the world we live in. Every movement or protest has people who resort to violence. Whether actual protesters, or whether infiltrated by someone looking to discredit the movement. Law enforcement is famous for it, and there are quite a few vidoes of them trying to 'start shit' so they can escalate. I don't know whether guns were used at Capitol Hill, I don't really care. It was an attempted violent coup. By the protesters, not infiltrators. I think the world has lost its marbles.
        4y ago
- ThunderSizzle 4y ago
  Perhaps if Congress and media actually addressed voting fraud concerns rather than pretending that our elections magically became perfect now that a Democrat won something, then no one would have shown up. But as it is, it's unclear who won the election without fraud.
  - multjoy 4y ago
    >But as it is, it's unclear who won the election without fraud. No it isn't.
    - ThunderSizzle 4y ago
      Who won Georgia? Fulton County uploaded enough questionable votes to account for the number of votes Biden allegedly won by, a couple times over. That was never looked into before certification. Other states have similar problems.
richbell 4y ago
It's a convenient excuse. The reality is that the admins are continually clamping down on subreddits they don't like, without any justification or consistency. For example, one is left to wonder why /r/drama was forced to shut down because the admins considered them a nuisance, yet left-leaning subreddits engaging in vote-brigading and other equally disruptive behaviour are still around. I'd be remiss to claim that it's purely a left vs. right thing. But if the Aimee Challenor debacle was any indication, they have a clear list of people they like and people they don't like. And if they don't like you, for whatever reason, they eject you from the platform without any recourse.
philistine 4y ago
Because that's true. When American democracy is no more, and a republican administration has denied any other political party from holding political office, remember that no one cleaned house in the American right wing, and let everyone slowly turn into the fascists.
- MrMan 4y ago
  - dpbriggs 4y ago
    Did you intend to be racist and inflammatory, or just inflammatory?
teddyh 4y ago
It sells news if people do, so news promotes this view: http://www.thewebcomicfactory.com/comic/the-antiwar-comic-insurrection-fever/ http://www.thewebcomicfactory.com/comic/the-antiwar-comic-in...
- teddyh 4y ago
  Also: http://www.thewebcomicfactory.com/comic/the-antiwar-comic-one-mans-protester/ http://www.thewebcomicfactory.com/comic/the-antiwar-comic-on... http://www.thewebcomicfactory.com/comic/the-antiwar-comic-the-misinformation-war/ http://www.thewebcomicfactory.com/comic/the-antiwar-comic-th...

mardifoufs 4y ago

All of that happened before the 6th of January. If anything, reddit was pretty much scrubbed way before Jan 6th so that's a really disingenuous argument

swat535 4y ago

And yet the violent BLM mobs that literally set on fire and looted businesses and shops that had nothing to do with the actual cause were not only not condemned but also glorified and celebrated. You will not convince me that stealing TVs from target during riots that let to many unjustified injuries and deaths is about seeking justice. I’m not even American and this was completely obvious. Please let’s not pretend we don’t have extremism on both sides of the political compass. I have witness this behaviour on HN many times as well since this website leans overwhelmingly left; try saying anything remotely controversial and watch the downvotes ensue. I intentionally avoid speaking about my own views openly here out of fear of repercussion; especially because many users on this website run businesses and have the power to ruin my career and my livelihood. If it weren’t for dang, this place would descend to chaos just as well.

MrMan 4y ago
schrodinger 4y ago
I live in NYC and was first-hand there for the BLM protests. Can attest that they were almost unilaterally peaceful from my anecdotal experience. The police were extreme in their responses. I was at Un Sq and ppl in the streets were just chanting "no justice, no peace" (but peacefully doing so, I suppose a bit of irony), and suddenly the police yelled out to disperse. I was off the to the side just to observe a moment of history, and watched ppl obey that order, yet personally got rammed by a police shield and hit with a baton because it just takes a crowd a certain amount of time to move. I was livid and saw police barbarity in action. There certainly were bad actors. I saw a police van lit on fire. But from what I read in the papers, these were prosecuted and out of staters coming to NY to basically get their rocks off. The overall movement was peaceful.
- aqouta 4y ago
  I watched from my roof as someone rammed a moving van into multiple store fronts. I'm going to stick with my lying eyes.