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The article is actually about underpasses, which are not "tunnels" but rather a bridge (or overpass) built on the "other" road. Such "tunnels" are normally ver

by jaclaz 4y ago

The article is actually about underpasses, which are not "tunnels" but rather a bridge (or overpass) built on the "other" road. Such "tunnels" are normally very short and straight, so I cannot understand the reference to turns in the article, a "real" tunnel is several tens of meters, more often hundreds or thousands meters long and very likely is not straight, though I doubt that they are the preferred hideout for mugglers aiming at cyclists.

anttiharju 4y ago
Yeah, underpass is a much more appropriate name. Now that you mention it, it does seem strange that the article doesn't mention turns before/after tunnels as those tend to lead to risk taking (going too fast into the underpass that you can't see into). At least in Finland the underpasses used by cyclists are also used by pedestrians, so the underpasses being used as mugging spots is conceivable, although I've never heard about it happening.
- Someone 4y ago
  I think it’s more about perceived safety than about actual risks. A design that is safe, but makes “the people” think it is dangerous is a failed design, as fewer people would use it.
  - emn13 4y ago
    I live near a mixed use cycle+pedestrian underpass under a railroad that has curves into and out of it. It's mildy terrifying in a way that's surely by design. I don't know how safe it actually is, but it _is_ used very heavily - because it's by far the shortest path connecting most routes on the opposite sides of the train track, which trumps virtually all other concerns in day to day traffic, especially for pedestrians and cyclists. And hey, there's no car traffic, so accidents are likely to be at least a little milder, though hitting one of those stone pillars is perhaps not much better.
bobthepanda 4y ago
Actual tunnels are usually pretty awful for cyclists, pedestrians and motorcyclists since they tend to be hot and full of exhaust fumes.
- AlecSchueler 4y ago
  Any tunnel I've been in has been fine. Motorcycles can't enter, they have to go on the road, not the cycle lane. Smaller "scooters" can be admitted but there is plenty of active ventilation to deal with that. In the case of the Maas Tunnel in Rotterdam there is a second tunnel for combustion vehicles. Pedestrians have a tunnel of their own below the cycle tunnel.
  - vinay427 4y ago
    I think they meant tunnels in general that affect people not in cars, including motorcyclists, because of their lack of a loosely airtight or climate-controlled environment. As opposed to a tunnel specifically for bicyclists and motorcyclists, which is also how I read it at first.
  - seszett 4y ago
    The Kennedytunnel in Antwerp is two-level with a bike tunnel on top of the (very crowded) motorway, and it does smell of fumes in spite of the ventilation. The large detours of the bike path at both ends of the tunnel are also a bit annoying as they significantly increase the distance you have to cycle. The alternative with elevators like in the Sint Annatunnel isn't really better though, because there you just have to wait for a long time for the elevator. I much prefer bridges but where I've used bike bridges (like in Nantes) they were very low with little clearance above water. Even in Lille they're just a few meters, maybe ten meters at most, above water, so they're easy to climb without a large detour. I wouldn't take the Pont de Cheviré on a bike for example...
  - agsnu 4y ago
    I immediately thought of the Rotherhithe tunnel in London. While pedestrians and cyclists can use it, it's grim - see this video for example of someone walking it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjAHzZa_pc8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjAHzZa_pc8 Clearly for crossing any lengthy stretch of water, a bridge is much preferable to a tunnel.
nstom 4y ago
Based on his name and the picture in the article, I assume the author is Dutch. We don’t have the distinction between underpasses and tunnels in our language and just call everything ‘tunnel’. It may have to do with the country being so flat that there are no mountains to tunnel through. I can only think of a single real bicycle/pedestrian tunnel, which is the Maastunnel in Rotterdam. Incidentally it is also one of the oldest tunnels in the country. It was recently renovated and is actually really pleasant to cycle through, because motorised traffic uses a separate tunnel tube. As for turns in underpasses, at complex junctions or infrastructural elements it may be tempting to just make a small bend so that the underpass is cheaper to build or easier to fit in to the environment. Take these crossroads for example: https://goo.gl/maps/21Yqj89WwyiiuZfD9 https://goo.gl/maps/21Yqj89WwyiiuZfD9. If you look closely you will see a bicycle tunnel going underneath from the southwest to the northeast. This important connection for the residents southwest of the shopping center is relatively long and has a slight bend. This makes it feel dark and unsafe to the people who use it. A better design can be found at this roundabout: https://goo.gl/maps/TXuFjXj85huufc7m6 https://goo.gl/maps/TXuFjXj85huufc7m6. Because the middle section is open, all of the individual underpasses are short and there is a lot of daylight, making cycling there safer and more pleasant.
- LittlePeter 4y ago
  There is "onderdoorgang", which shows similar images as in the OP: https://www.google.com/search?q=onderdoorgang https://www.google.com/search?q=onderdoorgang But I don't think I ever used this word... I'd say tunnel I guess.
- jaclaz 4y ago
  Yep, I understand that now. Here in Italy (where we have lots of mountains and conversely tunnels) the distiction between tunnel and underpass (or overpass) is neat, we also have (though not extremely common) distinctions betweeen different kinds of tunnels (Galleria):
- Beldin 4y ago
  Overpass is called "viaduct" in Dutch, though a multi-lane overpass is often colloquially called a tunnel. We do have tunnel-like structures for what technically are overpasses, eg.: bike path next to a river; major multilane road crosses river+bikepath; resulting structure for bike path is a tunnel (Dommeltunneltje in Eindhoven), though doesn't go underground.
rmbyrro 4y ago
Clarification: this is valid, useful criticism, not at all pendantry. Usage of the "tunnels" word got me confused through the first half of the article, until it showed a photo of an underpassage in the Netherlands.
owisd 4y ago
The difference Network Rail (the UK's rail infrastructure body) used to distinguish between a tunnel and a bridge was that if it was over 20m long it was a tunnel, but then someone came up with the bright idea to redefine a tunnel as over 30m long, so everything in the 20-30m range would cost less to maintain because bridge engineers were cheaper than tunnel engineers.

by jaclaz 4y ago

anttiharju 4y ago

Yeah, underpass is a much more appropriate name. Now that you mention it, it does seem strange that the article doesn't mention turns before/after tunnels as those tend to lead to risk taking (going too fast into the underpass that you can't see into). At least in Finland the underpasses used by cyclists are also used by pedestrians, so the underpasses being used as mugging spots is conceivable, although I've never heard about it happening.

Someone 4y ago
I think it’s more about perceived safety than about actual risks. A design that is safe, but makes “the people” think it is dangerous is a failed design, as fewer people would use it.
- emn13 4y ago
  I live near a mixed use cycle+pedestrian underpass under a railroad that has curves into and out of it. It's mildy terrifying in a way that's surely by design. I don't know how safe it actually is, but it _is_ used very heavily - because it's by far the shortest path connecting most routes on the opposite sides of the train track, which trumps virtually all other concerns in day to day traffic, especially for pedestrians and cyclists. And hey, there's no car traffic, so accidents are likely to be at least a little milder, though hitting one of those stone pillars is perhaps not much better.

bobthepanda 4y ago

Actual tunnels are usually pretty awful for cyclists, pedestrians and motorcyclists since they tend to be hot and full of exhaust fumes.

AlecSchueler 4y ago
Any tunnel I've been in has been fine. Motorcycles can't enter, they have to go on the road, not the cycle lane. Smaller "scooters" can be admitted but there is plenty of active ventilation to deal with that. In the case of the Maas Tunnel in Rotterdam there is a second tunnel for combustion vehicles. Pedestrians have a tunnel of their own below the cycle tunnel.
- vinay427 4y ago
  I think they meant tunnels in general that affect people not in cars, including motorcyclists, because of their lack of a loosely airtight or climate-controlled environment. As opposed to a tunnel specifically for bicyclists and motorcyclists, which is also how I read it at first.
- seszett 4y ago
  The Kennedytunnel in Antwerp is two-level with a bike tunnel on top of the (very crowded) motorway, and it does smell of fumes in spite of the ventilation. The large detours of the bike path at both ends of the tunnel are also a bit annoying as they significantly increase the distance you have to cycle. The alternative with elevators like in the Sint Annatunnel isn't really better though, because there you just have to wait for a long time for the elevator. I much prefer bridges but where I've used bike bridges (like in Nantes) they were very low with little clearance above water. Even in Lille they're just a few meters, maybe ten meters at most, above water, so they're easy to climb without a large detour. I wouldn't take the Pont de Cheviré on a bike for example...
- agsnu 4y ago
  I immediately thought of the Rotherhithe tunnel in London. While pedestrians and cyclists can use it, it's grim - see this video for example of someone walking it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjAHzZa_pc8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjAHzZa_pc8 Clearly for crossing any lengthy stretch of water, a bridge is much preferable to a tunnel.

nstom 4y ago

Based on his name and the picture in the article, I assume the author is Dutch. We don’t have the distinction between underpasses and tunnels in our language and just call everything ‘tunnel’. It may have to do with the country being so flat that there are no mountains to tunnel through. I can only think of a single real bicycle/pedestrian tunnel, which is the Maastunnel in Rotterdam. Incidentally it is also one of the oldest tunnels in the country. It was recently renovated and is actually really pleasant to cycle through, because motorised traffic uses a separate tunnel tube. As for turns in underpasses, at complex junctions or infrastructural elements it may be tempting to just make a small bend so that the underpass is cheaper to build or easier to fit in to the environment. Take these crossroads for example: https://goo.gl/maps/21Yqj89WwyiiuZfD9 https://goo.gl/maps/21Yqj89WwyiiuZfD9. If you look closely you will see a bicycle tunnel going underneath from the southwest to the northeast. This important connection for the residents southwest of the shopping center is relatively long and has a slight bend. This makes it feel dark and unsafe to the people who use it. A better design can be found at this roundabout: https://goo.gl/maps/TXuFjXj85huufc7m6 https://goo.gl/maps/TXuFjXj85huufc7m6. Because the middle section is open, all of the individual underpasses are short and there is a lot of daylight, making cycling there safer and more pleasant.

LittlePeter 4y ago
There is "onderdoorgang", which shows similar images as in the OP: https://www.google.com/search?q=onderdoorgang https://www.google.com/search?q=onderdoorgang But I don't think I ever used this word... I'd say tunnel I guess.
jaclaz 4y ago
Yep, I understand that now. Here in Italy (where we have lots of mountains and conversely tunnels) the distiction between tunnel and underpass (or overpass) is neat, we also have (though not extremely common) distinctions betweeen different kinds of tunnels (Galleria):
Beldin 4y ago
Overpass is called "viaduct" in Dutch, though a multi-lane overpass is often colloquially called a tunnel. We do have tunnel-like structures for what technically are overpasses, eg.: bike path next to a river; major multilane road crosses river+bikepath; resulting structure for bike path is a tunnel (Dommeltunneltje in Eindhoven), though doesn't go underground.

rmbyrro 4y ago

Clarification: this is valid, useful criticism, not at all pendantry. Usage of the "tunnels" word got me confused through the first half of the article, until it showed a photo of an underpassage in the Netherlands.

owisd 4y ago

The difference Network Rail (the UK's rail infrastructure body) used to distinguish between a tunnel and a bridge was that if it was over 20m long it was a tunnel, but then someone came up with the bright idea to redefine a tunnel as over 30m long, so everything in the 20-30m range would cost less to maintain because bridge engineers were cheaper than tunnel engineers.