4 ms·

This is like solving homelessness by putting spikes on benches to keep people from sleeping there: It doesn't solve the problem, it just pushes it out of your j

This is like solving homelessness by putting spikes on benches to keep people from sleeping there: It doesn't solve the problem, it just pushes it out of your jurisdiction.

hinkley 4y ago
For certain classes of crime, pushing the criminals out also increases the crime rate. I recall reading about a study on this where pushing criminals out of a 'bad neighborhood' caused the crime rate in that area to drop, but the rate in two adjacent neighborhoods went up by 60% of the drop in the 'bad' one.
- wizofaus 4y ago
  That would be an argument against any attempt to clean up crime that wasn't done at a greater-city-wide scale. And maybe that really is true - the only genuinely effective measures you can take to reduce crime have to be applied to a sufficiently wide area. I'm not sure if we have enough data points to draw that conclusion though.
  - hinkley 4y ago
    Could be. It may also be a factor of whether the high crime area is the first or the last occurence, since in the case of it being the first, you cause a diaspora. Whereas if it's the last, then you're squeezing.
wizofaus 4y ago
Maybe, but that's assuming criminals are no more likely to opt instead for going clean if circumstances change in such a way that committing crimes becomes less rewarding than it is for homeless people to "opt" for purchasing/renting a home if circumstances change that make sleeping rough less attractive.
- tomxor 4y ago
  Many criminals can't get a job just like many homeless can't afford rent (the sad thing is that the latter sometimes do have a job). How does it make sense to dissuade those people from doing something they don't have a choice in. As the parent said, it will only displace, it's as uninformed as shouting "get a job you lazy bum" at people.
  - wizofaus 4y ago
    Some criminals, yes. But plenty just get mixed up with the wrong crowd or go through some rough patch that leads them into a period of criminal activity that has persisted even when better choices become available. And I'd always advocate for solutions that involved giving people better options in tandem with making life harder for criminals.
    - ocdtrekkie 4y ago
      So like, if someone deals drugs and uses a bus stop as an exchange point, and the transportation authority moves the bus stop... is that going to cause people to give up their life of crime, or cause them to swap their meeting point?
      - wizofaus 4y ago
        Any individual change like that might not have a significant impact, but as part of a range of reforms etc. it's not so hard to believe moving (or better monitoring of) bus stops and other similar public amenities could increase community safety (which may just mean criminals resort to interacting less with the public and more with other criminals, but that's still an improvement). And as part of that at least some criminals may see it as an opportunity to change directions in their lives. Do you have a better idea?
LegitShady 4y ago
the spikes aren't there to solve homelessness, they're there to keep people from sleeping on the benches.

This is like solving homelessness by putting spikes on benches to keep people from sleeping there: It doesn't solve the problem, it just pushes it out of your jurisdiction.

hinkley 4y ago

For certain classes of crime, pushing the criminals out also increases the crime rate. I recall reading about a study on this where pushing criminals out of a 'bad neighborhood' caused the crime rate in that area to drop, but the rate in two adjacent neighborhoods went up by 60% of the drop in the 'bad' one.

wizofaus 4y ago
That would be an argument against any attempt to clean up crime that wasn't done at a greater-city-wide scale. And maybe that really is true - the only genuinely effective measures you can take to reduce crime have to be applied to a sufficiently wide area. I'm not sure if we have enough data points to draw that conclusion though.
- hinkley 4y ago
  Could be. It may also be a factor of whether the high crime area is the first or the last occurence, since in the case of it being the first, you cause a diaspora. Whereas if it's the last, then you're squeezing.

wizofaus 4y ago

Maybe, but that's assuming criminals are no more likely to opt instead for going clean if circumstances change in such a way that committing crimes becomes less rewarding than it is for homeless people to "opt" for purchasing/renting a home if circumstances change that make sleeping rough less attractive.

tomxor 4y ago
Many criminals can't get a job just like many homeless can't afford rent (the sad thing is that the latter sometimes do have a job). How does it make sense to dissuade those people from doing something they don't have a choice in. As the parent said, it will only displace, it's as uninformed as shouting "get a job you lazy bum" at people.
- wizofaus 4y ago
  Some criminals, yes. But plenty just get mixed up with the wrong crowd or go through some rough patch that leads them into a period of criminal activity that has persisted even when better choices become available. And I'd always advocate for solutions that involved giving people better options in tandem with making life harder for criminals.
  - ocdtrekkie 4y ago
    So like, if someone deals drugs and uses a bus stop as an exchange point, and the transportation authority moves the bus stop... is that going to cause people to give up their life of crime, or cause them to swap their meeting point?
    - wizofaus 4y ago
      Any individual change like that might not have a significant impact, but as part of a range of reforms etc. it's not so hard to believe moving (or better monitoring of) bus stops and other similar public amenities could increase community safety (which may just mean criminals resort to interacting less with the public and more with other criminals, but that's still an improvement). And as part of that at least some criminals may see it as an opportunity to change directions in their lives. Do you have a better idea?

LegitShady 4y ago

the spikes aren't there to solve homelessness, they're there to keep people from sleeping on the benches.