7 ms·

1. Agreed for the most part, though I think a startup could overcome the break-of-gauge limitations pretty fast with moderate investment (and less red tape). 2

1. Agreed for the most part, though I think a startup could overcome the break-of-gauge limitations pretty fast with moderate investment (and less red tape). 2. There are multiple different ways of handling BofG; the holdup is just deploying it effectively. 3. For loading gauge, using EU grain hauling stock with variable gauge (or swapped) bogies would be ideal - this avoids issues with larger cars and heavier axle loads. (Edit) 4. The unit nature of grain trains makes the problem easier to solve since outside of gauge changes you deal with large cuts of cars. No need to swap couplers on every car as you only hook on the ends (Europe uses hook & buffer, while the former USSR uses SA3) 5. Brazil has the largest network of dual gauge track in the world and has optimized it quite well; 1600mm gauge engines frequently handle 1000mm with the help of idler cars that allow them to couple up. Some lessons to be learned here.

kergonath 4y ago
> I think a startup could overcome the break-of-gauge limitations pretty fast with moderate investment (and less red tape) I am not sure what the angle is, here. Variable-gauge trains are things we can build, and as a matter of fact there are a bunch of them crossing the French-Spanish border every day. It’s not some magical disruptive technology that boring old engineering firms could not crack. It would not solve the issues already mentioned, which is that infrastructure is built for a set gauge, and wide-gauge carriages cannot physically fit in some places in a narrow-gauge network. And the red tape is not at this level anyway, it has to do with certification, with which the startup-ness of the designer won’t help. Not everything is best solved by just setting up a startup.
- kposehn 4y ago
  The angle is that systems to overcome this limitation have lacked for (a) economic reasons and (b) political will. Both clearly now are less of an issue due to the shortage of grain on the global market due to the war.
  - avianlyric 4y ago
    But what do either of those factors have to do with startups? If economics and politics are the primary blockers, what exactly are startups bringing to the table?
    - kposehn 4y ago
      Someone has to start it. Incumbents so far have not.
      - kergonath 4y ago
        But that’s the thing, to start what? So far there has been no real need, but existing companies are perfectly able to do it once the need arises (particularly as there is bound to be some significant EU funding for this). Again, boring old companies do just that across several borders, and have been doing it for decades.
- larusso 4y ago
  > It would not solve the issues already mentioned, which is that infrastructure is built for a set gauge, and wide-gauge carriages cannot physically fit in some places in a narrow-gauge network. My solution to this problem: Build it the other way. Use dual carriages from the EU side and add the gauge changeover at the border. I really don‘t see the reason why the wide-gauge trains have to travel over the border. Yes they can carry more load but that is simply something we have to live with. But they will try to unblock the ports before they even attempt to solve this issue.
  - kposehn 4y ago
    Exactly. Allowing European unit trains to run into Ukraine for grain would be a significant improvement at vastly lower cost.
    - petre 4y ago
      Russia would then bomb the Ukrainian part of this would be rail infrastructure, claiming it's used to transport weapons. But here is a discussion about this: https://en.thepage.ua/economy/ukraines-switch-to-european-railway-gauge https://en.thepage.ua/economy/ukraines-switch-to-european-ra... Romania still has an old Soviet gauge railway from Reni, Ukraine into the Galati Danube port via Giurgiulesti, Moldova. Poland also has Railway Line no. 65. Slovakia has two such lines, Uzhhorod to Kosice and one from Chop to Dobra. All of these should be repaired and used to get the grain out of Ukraine. There are also some older standard gauge lines from Poland and into Ukraine.
      - dredmorbius 4y ago
        Russia are already a demonstrably bad-faith and unreliable actor. I'd not let that stand as an obstruction to re-guaging UA rail.
- ThePowerOfFuet 4y ago
  > Variable-gauge trains are things we can build, and as a matter of fact there are a bunch of them crossing the French-Spanish border every day. The high speed lines are all standard gauge in both countries. At the crossing between Puigcerdà and La Tour de Carol the Catalan regional train goes one stop into France on an Iberian gauge line which ends there (English Wikipedia needs to be updated to reflect this). At the crossing between Cerbère and Portbou it's the opposite, with a French train going one stop into Catalonia on a standard gauge line which ends there.
  - kposehn 4y ago
    Renfe also operates some variable gauge trains on the high speed network that radiate out into the Iberian gauge lines to serve smaller cities. That said I don’t believe any cross the border to France.
    - ThePowerOfFuet 4y ago
      Why would they put slow trains on the high speed line? That sounds like a great way to make the AVE suck.
  - kergonath 4y ago
    > The high speed lines are all standard gauge in both countries. This is not what I was referring to. Variable gauge (Talgo) trains go through gauge changers at the border without going to the high speed Spanish lines. This has been done since 1969, and that’s how you can have a single train going from Barcelona to Montpellier (and then Geneva, back in the day). It really is not rocket science and has been done for 60 years now.
    - ThePowerOfFuet 4y ago
      Can you please provide a train number that goes from BCN to Montpellier that isn't an SNCF TGV Euroduplex? I have been on an Intercités de Nuit from Paris to BCN (Estació de França), going through the gauge changing building at Portbou. Alas, that service was deleted when the TGV became homologated for cross-border service around 2013, and AFAIK there is no further passenger traffic which uses it.
- midasuni 4y ago
  Track Gauge can be solved, various methods with various pros and cons, from adjusting bogies to just relaying the tracks (like GWR did in ye olden days) Loading gauge though is another matter - you can’t fit a square peg in a round hole.
- hinkley 4y ago
  I need to see videos of this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwNl-g_91GE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwNl-g_91GE So the first split gauge cars went into service in 1965, but it took a while for them to create locomotives that could do the same thing.
labster 4y ago
Just make a startup to fix it is classic HN. Six generations of hackers have been working on the problem of track gauge, but it’s obviously going to be solved with a few million in VC funding. On the last point, some gauges are too close to run dual gauge tracks well. It’s great when you can just add a third rail, but European and Soviet standards are too close and need four rails to run on the same track.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

kergonath 4y ago

> I think a startup could overcome the break-of-gauge limitations pretty fast with moderate investment (and less red tape) I am not sure what the angle is, here. Variable-gauge trains are things we can build, and as a matter of fact there are a bunch of them crossing the French-Spanish border every day. It’s not some magical disruptive technology that boring old engineering firms could not crack. It would not solve the issues already mentioned, which is that infrastructure is built for a set gauge, and wide-gauge carriages cannot physically fit in some places in a narrow-gauge network. And the red tape is not at this level anyway, it has to do with certification, with which the startup-ness of the designer won’t help. Not everything is best solved by just setting up a startup.

kposehn 4y ago
The angle is that systems to overcome this limitation have lacked for (a) economic reasons and (b) political will. Both clearly now are less of an issue due to the shortage of grain on the global market due to the war.
- avianlyric 4y ago
  But what do either of those factors have to do with startups? If economics and politics are the primary blockers, what exactly are startups bringing to the table?
  - kposehn 4y ago
    Someone has to start it. Incumbents so far have not.
    - kergonath 4y ago
      But that’s the thing, to start what? So far there has been no real need, but existing companies are perfectly able to do it once the need arises (particularly as there is bound to be some significant EU funding for this). Again, boring old companies do just that across several borders, and have been doing it for decades.
larusso 4y ago
> It would not solve the issues already mentioned, which is that infrastructure is built for a set gauge, and wide-gauge carriages cannot physically fit in some places in a narrow-gauge network. My solution to this problem: Build it the other way. Use dual carriages from the EU side and add the gauge changeover at the border. I really don‘t see the reason why the wide-gauge trains have to travel over the border. Yes they can carry more load but that is simply something we have to live with. But they will try to unblock the ports before they even attempt to solve this issue.
- kposehn 4y ago
  Exactly. Allowing European unit trains to run into Ukraine for grain would be a significant improvement at vastly lower cost.
  - petre 4y ago
    Russia would then bomb the Ukrainian part of this would be rail infrastructure, claiming it's used to transport weapons. But here is a discussion about this: https://en.thepage.ua/economy/ukraines-switch-to-european-railway-gauge https://en.thepage.ua/economy/ukraines-switch-to-european-ra... Romania still has an old Soviet gauge railway from Reni, Ukraine into the Galati Danube port via Giurgiulesti, Moldova. Poland also has Railway Line no. 65. Slovakia has two such lines, Uzhhorod to Kosice and one from Chop to Dobra. All of these should be repaired and used to get the grain out of Ukraine. There are also some older standard gauge lines from Poland and into Ukraine.
    - dredmorbius 4y ago
      Russia are already a demonstrably bad-faith and unreliable actor. I'd not let that stand as an obstruction to re-guaging UA rail.
ThePowerOfFuet 4y ago
> Variable-gauge trains are things we can build, and as a matter of fact there are a bunch of them crossing the French-Spanish border every day. The high speed lines are all standard gauge in both countries. At the crossing between Puigcerdà and La Tour de Carol the Catalan regional train goes one stop into France on an Iberian gauge line which ends there (English Wikipedia needs to be updated to reflect this). At the crossing between Cerbère and Portbou it's the opposite, with a French train going one stop into Catalonia on a standard gauge line which ends there.
- kposehn 4y ago
  Renfe also operates some variable gauge trains on the high speed network that radiate out into the Iberian gauge lines to serve smaller cities. That said I don’t believe any cross the border to France.
  - ThePowerOfFuet 4y ago
    Why would they put slow trains on the high speed line? That sounds like a great way to make the AVE suck.
- kergonath 4y ago
  > The high speed lines are all standard gauge in both countries. This is not what I was referring to. Variable gauge (Talgo) trains go through gauge changers at the border without going to the high speed Spanish lines. This has been done since 1969, and that’s how you can have a single train going from Barcelona to Montpellier (and then Geneva, back in the day). It really is not rocket science and has been done for 60 years now.
  - ThePowerOfFuet 4y ago
    Can you please provide a train number that goes from BCN to Montpellier that isn't an SNCF TGV Euroduplex? I have been on an Intercités de Nuit from Paris to BCN (Estació de França), going through the gauge changing building at Portbou. Alas, that service was deleted when the TGV became homologated for cross-border service around 2013, and AFAIK there is no further passenger traffic which uses it.
midasuni 4y ago
Track Gauge can be solved, various methods with various pros and cons, from adjusting bogies to just relaying the tracks (like GWR did in ye olden days) Loading gauge though is another matter - you can’t fit a square peg in a round hole.
hinkley 4y ago
I need to see videos of this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwNl-g_91GE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwNl-g_91GE So the first split gauge cars went into service in 1965, but it took a while for them to create locomotives that could do the same thing.

labster 4y ago

Just make a startup to fix it is classic HN. Six generations of hackers have been working on the problem of track gauge, but it’s obviously going to be solved with a few million in VC funding. On the last point, some gauges are too close to run dual gauge tracks well. It’s great when you can just add a third rail, but European and Soviet standards are too close and need four rails to run on the same track.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]