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I just love how the implicit subtext is that anyone with faith is a loony redneck. "How could they possibly believe this stuff?" Well, I'm a Harvard/Columbia-e

by cpr 18y ago

I just love how the implicit subtext is that anyone with faith is a loony redneck. "How could they possibly believe this stuff?" Well, I'm a Harvard/Columbia-educated old-time hacker (53 now), been through several start-ups, have run my own software "lifestyle" company for nearly 20 years, and I'm also an enthusiastic Roman Catholic. (Gasp, the horror.) I believe I can give a good defense of my faith to anyone whose mind isn't already completely closed, but this wouldn't be the place to do it... Maybe over a beer late some night.

yan 18y ago
I'd love to have a friendly conversation with someone like you, who my arguments (probably) won't necessarily offend. Whenever any conversation trails to religion, just by its nature, will undermine everything the other person believes in and bound to get someone upset.
- swombat 18y ago
  I've had many great conversations about religion with christian friends, which didn't get either of us upset.
tptacek 18y ago
Plenty of smart hackers are Christian (to pick a specific example), including Ruby's Matz, SQLite's Richard Hipp, and Perl's Larry Wall. Two of the smartest people in security (I won't name them, because I don't think they're "out") are practicing Christians. I'm a nonpracticing Catholic, but I don't rank in the list above. I think the "militant atheism" meme is a product of pop culture and a misplaced projection of anger at our current political regime. I also think that few "devout" atheists think that Barack Obama is a looney because he's a practicing Christian, so I think this has more to do with culture than with religion.
- jamesbritt 18y ago
  " ... think that Barack Obama is a looney because he's a practicing Christian ..." Many people deride Sarah Palin for assorted religious beliefs (such as the co-existence of people and dinosaurs) yet there is next to no deriding of Obama for believing that there lived a man who could bring the dead back to life, and who was himself killed and then rose from the dead. How and where do people draw the line for acceptable bizarre beliefs?
  - tptacek 18y ago
    So, two things. First, the other comment in this thread, where the commenter talks about all the conversations they have with Christians that are useful and don't wind up offending people? I'm guessing they don't start by calling people's beliefs "bizarre". Bizarre means "strikingly out of the ordinary"; Christianity is one of the most common belief systems on the planet. Just a thought. Second, Palin's beliefs are far outside of the mainstream. Mainstream Christians don't reject the most basic findings of science; plenty of mainstream Christians believe in evolution, the big bang, and quantum mechanics. Palin's beliefs are, by modern standards, eccentric. They also directly impact her job: I have zero problem with a President who believes in the Ten Commandments, but a lot of problems with a President who believes who should ban books on evolution from the libraries. Does that answer your question?
    - Herring 18y ago
      "..common belief systems... far outside of the mainstream.." Good thing you're not saying normal people actually evaluate beliefs according to how popular they are. Because that would be bizarre.
      - tptacek 18y ago
        Palin's beliefs are both noteworthy for how far outside the mainstream they are, and alarming (for a President) on their own merits.
    - jamesbritt 18y ago
      " I'm guessing they don't start by calling people's beliefs "bizarre". Bizarre means "strikingly out of the ordinary"; Christianity is one of the most common belief systems on the planet. Just a thought." If you say, "I am a Christian", few think that bizarre. If you say, "I believe it that someone could bring the dead back to life just by willing it so", many more will think it bizarre. The mundane ubiquity of various religions seems to have shielded people from any real scrutiny of what those religions ask one to believe. And many of those beliefs, common or not, are just plain bizarre. I don't disagree that that Palin's beliefs would have a sooner, greater impact on national life, but do you not think that a president's belief in an afterlife or almighty creator will also effect executive decisions?
- gruseom 18y ago
  I also think that few "devout" atheists think that Barack Obama is a looney because he's a practicing Christian I suspect this is because they think he isn't really a believer, just paying the religious homage which is an entry-level criterion for any US presidential aspirant. I remember thinking this about Bill Clinton years ago (and still find it hard to believe that he's a genuine Baptist or whatever he claimed to be). Obama's a little harder to read, but I suppose for most atheists it's easy to resolve the question by thinking he probably doesn't mean it.
  - rms 18y ago
    His parents were secular/atheist which lends a lot of credence to that idea in my mind.
  - tptacek 18y ago
    The only way you can metabolize a "respectable" politician being Christian is to assume he's lying about it?
    - gruseom 18y ago
      Down, boy. :) I didn't say that. I said it's an easy way to resolve the cognitive dissonance for those who want to. Just to be clear (and because I think it's interesting and would like to hear others on this), let me spell this one out. Say you're an atheist who agrees with that recent comment by Bill Maher that Christians "drink the blood of a 2000-year-old space god" (something like that) - in other words, are loony. But like most college-educated Americans you support Obama. Obama is a practising Christian. Who wants to believe that they're supporting a loon for president? It's a classic cognitive dissonance. So you look for a way to resolve the contradiction. One can think of a few: 1. Some Christians are loony but others aren't. This is what you originally suggested. But there are a lot of atheists who won't accept it. 2. He's loony but he's the lesser of two loony evils. 3. He's not a loon. He has to pretend to be Christian for political reasons. Sure it's not optimal, but such is US society, at least for now. See what I mean? Does anybody have one to add to this list?
      - 18y ago
- andrewf 18y ago
  Novell's Michael Meeks is a rather overtly Christian hacker. (I won't name them, because I don't think they're "out") I'm an atheist, and that's incredibly depressing :/
Herring 18y ago
And I just love how there's always some supposedly intelligent christian posting anecdotes.
- tjr 18y ago
  Why "supposedly"?
  - axod 18y ago
    If I said I believed there were a small family of pixies living in my garden, and that I can hear voices from the pixies telling me what to do, it would be hard to see past that to intelligence. There are several studies to show that lower IQ matches with a higher probability of religion. Of course there are odd outliers as with anything, but it's still a paradox - how can someone have logical thought, but believe in religion. For a start the fact that they only believe in one religion and not all the others should be a red flag - an athiest and christian are very alike, the athiest just believes in one less god.
    - bmj 18y ago
      Of course there are odd outliers as with anything, but it's still a paradox - how can someone have logical thought, but believe in religion. Consider that a large part of western culture is the product of rather religious people (I'm not claiming it is exclusively the product of Judeo-Christian thinkers). There is a long tradition of "odd outliers" throughout history. I do, however, appreciate this: For a start the fact that they only believe in one religion and not all the others should be a red flag - an athiest and christian are very alike, the athiest just believes in one less god.
    - chollida1 18y ago
      > There are several studies to show that lower IQ matches with a higher probability of religion. Could you show some. I couldn't find any via search sites.
      - axod 18y ago
ComputerGuru 18y ago
Same exact thing here - I consider myself to be a pretty religious Muslim (pretty religious != fanatic or terrorist, btw), and that's never been an issue with regards to hacking away at the console.. and I'm always up for a nice philosophical (non-prejudiced) discussion at the appropriate time and venue :)
jbert 18y ago
It's not so much loony as irrational. Faith is irrational, by definition (Pascal's wager notwithstanding). Many people believe in many irrational things (the perfection of their children, the ability of their team to win this game) and decent people don't challenge them on it. It only becomes an issue when irrationally-held beliefs come into conflict with rationality that reasonable people get upset. Sort of like, your freedom to swing you fist ends at the end of my nose, your freedom to believe in whatever you want stops when it affects me. (edit - well, of course you are always free to believe whatever you want. But my tolerance of it may be reduced.)

by cpr 18y ago

yan 18y ago

I'd love to have a friendly conversation with someone like you, who my arguments (probably) won't necessarily offend. Whenever any conversation trails to religion, just by its nature, will undermine everything the other person believes in and bound to get someone upset.

swombat 18y ago
I've had many great conversations about religion with christian friends, which didn't get either of us upset.

tptacek 18y ago

Plenty of smart hackers are Christian (to pick a specific example), including Ruby's Matz, SQLite's Richard Hipp, and Perl's Larry Wall. Two of the smartest people in security (I won't name them, because I don't think they're "out") are practicing Christians. I'm a nonpracticing Catholic, but I don't rank in the list above. I think the "militant atheism" meme is a product of pop culture and a misplaced projection of anger at our current political regime. I also think that few "devout" atheists think that Barack Obama is a looney because he's a practicing Christian, so I think this has more to do with culture than with religion.

jamesbritt 18y ago
" ... think that Barack Obama is a looney because he's a practicing Christian ..." Many people deride Sarah Palin for assorted religious beliefs (such as the co-existence of people and dinosaurs) yet there is next to no deriding of Obama for believing that there lived a man who could bring the dead back to life, and who was himself killed and then rose from the dead. How and where do people draw the line for acceptable bizarre beliefs?
- tptacek 18y ago
  So, two things. First, the other comment in this thread, where the commenter talks about all the conversations they have with Christians that are useful and don't wind up offending people? I'm guessing they don't start by calling people's beliefs "bizarre". Bizarre means "strikingly out of the ordinary"; Christianity is one of the most common belief systems on the planet. Just a thought. Second, Palin's beliefs are far outside of the mainstream. Mainstream Christians don't reject the most basic findings of science; plenty of mainstream Christians believe in evolution, the big bang, and quantum mechanics. Palin's beliefs are, by modern standards, eccentric. They also directly impact her job: I have zero problem with a President who believes in the Ten Commandments, but a lot of problems with a President who believes who should ban books on evolution from the libraries. Does that answer your question?
  - Herring 18y ago
    "..common belief systems... far outside of the mainstream.." Good thing you're not saying normal people actually evaluate beliefs according to how popular they are. Because that would be bizarre.
    - tptacek 18y ago
      Palin's beliefs are both noteworthy for how far outside the mainstream they are, and alarming (for a President) on their own merits.
  - jamesbritt 18y ago
    " I'm guessing they don't start by calling people's beliefs "bizarre". Bizarre means "strikingly out of the ordinary"; Christianity is one of the most common belief systems on the planet. Just a thought." If you say, "I am a Christian", few think that bizarre. If you say, "I believe it that someone could bring the dead back to life just by willing it so", many more will think it bizarre. The mundane ubiquity of various religions seems to have shielded people from any real scrutiny of what those religions ask one to believe. And many of those beliefs, common or not, are just plain bizarre. I don't disagree that that Palin's beliefs would have a sooner, greater impact on national life, but do you not think that a president's belief in an afterlife or almighty creator will also effect executive decisions?
gruseom 18y ago
I also think that few "devout" atheists think that Barack Obama is a looney because he's a practicing Christian I suspect this is because they think he isn't really a believer, just paying the religious homage which is an entry-level criterion for any US presidential aspirant. I remember thinking this about Bill Clinton years ago (and still find it hard to believe that he's a genuine Baptist or whatever he claimed to be). Obama's a little harder to read, but I suppose for most atheists it's easy to resolve the question by thinking he probably doesn't mean it.
- rms 18y ago
  His parents were secular/atheist which lends a lot of credence to that idea in my mind.
- tptacek 18y ago
  The only way you can metabolize a "respectable" politician being Christian is to assume he's lying about it?
  - gruseom 18y ago
    Down, boy. :) I didn't say that. I said it's an easy way to resolve the cognitive dissonance for those who want to. Just to be clear (and because I think it's interesting and would like to hear others on this), let me spell this one out. Say you're an atheist who agrees with that recent comment by Bill Maher that Christians "drink the blood of a 2000-year-old space god" (something like that) - in other words, are loony. But like most college-educated Americans you support Obama. Obama is a practising Christian. Who wants to believe that they're supporting a loon for president? It's a classic cognitive dissonance. So you look for a way to resolve the contradiction. One can think of a few: 1. Some Christians are loony but others aren't. This is what you originally suggested. But there are a lot of atheists who won't accept it. 2. He's loony but he's the lesser of two loony evils. 3. He's not a loon. He has to pretend to be Christian for political reasons. Sure it's not optimal, but such is US society, at least for now. See what I mean? Does anybody have one to add to this list?
    - 18y ago
andrewf 18y ago
Novell's Michael Meeks is a rather overtly Christian hacker. (I won't name them, because I don't think they're "out") I'm an atheist, and that's incredibly depressing :/

Herring 18y ago

And I just love how there's always some supposedly intelligent christian posting anecdotes.

tjr 18y ago
Why "supposedly"?
- axod 18y ago
  If I said I believed there were a small family of pixies living in my garden, and that I can hear voices from the pixies telling me what to do, it would be hard to see past that to intelligence. There are several studies to show that lower IQ matches with a higher probability of religion. Of course there are odd outliers as with anything, but it's still a paradox - how can someone have logical thought, but believe in religion. For a start the fact that they only believe in one religion and not all the others should be a red flag - an athiest and christian are very alike, the athiest just believes in one less god.
  - bmj 18y ago
    Of course there are odd outliers as with anything, but it's still a paradox - how can someone have logical thought, but believe in religion. Consider that a large part of western culture is the product of rather religious people (I'm not claiming it is exclusively the product of Judeo-Christian thinkers). There is a long tradition of "odd outliers" throughout history. I do, however, appreciate this: For a start the fact that they only believe in one religion and not all the others should be a red flag - an athiest and christian are very alike, the athiest just believes in one less god.
  - chollida1 18y ago
    > There are several studies to show that lower IQ matches with a higher probability of religion. Could you show some. I couldn't find any via search sites.
    - axod 18y ago

ComputerGuru 18y ago

Same exact thing here - I consider myself to be a pretty religious Muslim (pretty religious != fanatic or terrorist, btw), and that's never been an issue with regards to hacking away at the console.. and I'm always up for a nice philosophical (non-prejudiced) discussion at the appropriate time and venue :)

jbert 18y ago

It's not so much loony as irrational. Faith is irrational, by definition (Pascal's wager notwithstanding). Many people believe in many irrational things (the perfection of their children, the ability of their team to win this game) and decent people don't challenge them on it. It only becomes an issue when irrationally-held beliefs come into conflict with rationality that reasonable people get upset. Sort of like, your freedom to swing you fist ends at the end of my nose, your freedom to believe in whatever you want stops when it affects me. (edit - well, of course you are always free to believe whatever you want. But my tolerance of it may be reduced.)