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It's a "Solid Debian Tablet" because it boots. Linux religionists ignore all problems after booting. Linux and Oss in general are religions like Apple is. "App

It's a "Solid Debian Tablet" because it boots. Linux religionists ignore all problems after booting. Linux and Oss in general are religions like Apple is. "Apple has NEVER done anything wrong," an Apple cleric told me about Antennagate. I've been using Linux for programming work for ten years now, but every time I buy a new machine I try to use Linux natively. In the last attempt, Linux stopped working after I tried using a Bluetooth joystick: Linux froze and never booted again. In ten years I never got hardware that runs 100% on Linux. I remember using a ThinkPad in 2010 and the wifi randomly disconnects 10 or more times an hour. I have issues with Flash animations, Youtube, sound, etc, a mix of hardware and software issues. If the ThinkPad is the best hardware for Linux, the worst is not imaginable. But... My friend, a religious Linux uses Linux every day, and for him linux is perfect, his laptop just needs a wifi dongle on USB because linux doesn't support the motherboard wifi chip. And there is a problem when Linux changes the integrated graphics card to a 3D graphics card, the screen goes black because when changing Linux sets the luminance of the screen to 0. The religious person accepts all weird religious things because it's good for you: "now I understand video drivers". No, you don't understand. After every failure in my Linux experience, my religious friend and the internet have told me I'm using either too old or too new hardware, or hardware from a bad vendor (Nivida is Satan) or the wrong Linux distribution (anything that isn't be Debian, Ubuntu included) and I'm too stupid to use Linux. Linux is the land of enlightened people and I'm not one of those people. And some people say "Linux is open, fix the bug yourself"... I love Linux, but I'm not religious about Linux, so to me the current status of Linux on real hardware is a disgrace. Linux works great on VirtualBox or equivalent, I use WSL for my daily work and I love working on Linux on WSL. Windows is a shit show with a lot of problems. But I never lost a Windows because of a joystick.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
pessimizer 4y ago
I'd say your experience is atypical. When I'm preparing to buy a new device that I expect to install Linux on, I look it up and make sure that everything will work (or the steps to take to ensure everything will work.) I buy the device, install Linux on first power-up, it installs fine, I never have any significant problems that I wasn't expecting. Instead of constantly accusing people of being religious zealots (in order to associate them with irrationality), how about just doing an hour of research before making your next attempt?
- zac23or 4y ago
  > When I'm preparing to buy a new device that I expect to install Linux on, I look it up and make sure that everything will work My friend did the same thing and in the end the Wifi didn't work. > Instead of constantly accusing people of being religious zealots Many people are religious about one thing or another, Linux is no exception, it's a fact of life. > how about just doing an hour of research before making your next attempt? Needing to research whether the hardware supports Linux is a clear indication that it shouldn't be used! Linux has been around for 30 years! if in 30 years the project has not solved the problem of drivers, it is a shame and a total failure in this area, because billions are invested in Linux per year.
npteljes 4y ago
I agree with your assessment. Linux and open source is, very often, an aftermarket solution. As such, it lags in things like hardware support, design trends, integration with other products. In fact, this is one of the things Microsoft made sure with their business tactics regarding Windows: that Windows should be the primary PC platform. They did their hardest to support this software-wise, with things like backward compatibility, and with ruthless business deals, bundling, support and discounts for govs and schools, and by letting people pirate it to their hearts' content. The result is what we see today: Windows everywhere, every hardware supports Windows, every software runs on Windows. Plug and play. (With caveats of course, for example I have an USB wifi stick that makes Win10 BSOD the moment I disconnect it. Linux has no problem with it.) That said, I lucked out with my Linux experience. Everything I need works well, and I don't tinker with it more than I did with Windows. The main difference is that I have much more control over the situation, compared to Windows' typical unhelpful messages and opaque environment.
- zac23or 4y ago
  > ings Microsoft made sure with their business tactics regarding Windows: that Windows should be the primary PC platform...and with ruthless business deals Yes, without doubt, Microsoft make a lot of bad things to Windows being the primary pc platform. > That said, I lucked out with my Linux experience. Everything I need works well My friend who uses a USB dongle for Wifi says the same thing!
  - smoldesu 4y ago
    > My friend who uses a USB dongle for Wifi says the same thing! I reckon you may have not tried a recent Linux kernel. Network hardware support is definitely better than MacOS at this point, and is creeping up on Windows in the consumer segment. I've used 5 different devices from 5 different manufacturers on Linux. Only one of them had a WiFi issue, which was only because the distro I was testing didn't ship with the specific driver for it (FWIW it was also a Surface product). It is curious though, I do see people who share your sentiment but, like the parent comment, I legitimately have no problems with it. My OEM Lenovo desktop from 2014 worked just fine. My new custom-built gaming PC with proprietary everything seems to work fine, too. I genuinely struggle to find devices that run Linux poorly, outside of maybe the gaming laptop space and Macbook market. It's probably one of those Paretto principle things: 80% of people will be offended by the 20% of drivers that are missing from your kernel.
kobalsky 4y ago
I understand that your point is about Linux zealots, but this isn't correct: > linux doesn't support the motherboard wifi chip Some drivers are included with the kernel and have 1st class support due to their importance but most wireless and video depends on manufacturers due to changing hardware and licencing issues. You are a software developer, you know this should read "the manufacturer didn't release a Linux driver".
- zac23or 4y ago
  Regardless of why the driver doesn't exist, the result is the same: Linux does not support the motherboard Wifi chip. Probably many Linux problems are not just technical problems, but political problems or other types of problems, but the result is the same: A terrible user experience.
  - smoldesu 4y ago
    > Linux does not support the motherboard Wifi chip. I'm sorry, this is a bald-faced lie. Every motherboard I've ever purchased has worked just fine with Linux networking out-of-the-box. If you bought a motherboard that doesn't support Linux, then I'm sorry to hear. That doesn't apply to everything though, so I'd recommend revising your wording in the future. It's kinda like complaining that your new Nvidia GPU won't get recognized by your Mac Pro, therefore all GPUs are incompatible with MacOS!
    - zac23or 4y ago
      > This is a bald-faced lie I another thing people say: You're a liar. > That doesn't apply to everything I never said that. And I never said that every GPU is incompatible with Linux.
jancsika 4y ago
> In ten years I never got hardware that runs 100% on Linux. You've never used XPS 13 Developer's Edition. It ships with Ubuntu. The hardware runs 100% on Linux. I even checked with the intel GPU command that measures whether it's actually using accelerated video. Everything works on Firefox and Chromium. Well, except those Reddit videos that use the web blob API, but those seem to buffer and screw up on every OS I've ever used.
- zac23or 4y ago
  > Well, except those Reddit videos Reddit videos are something, it is horrible on all systems/networks I've tested. :D
idonotknowwhy 4y ago
I've been using Linux as my daily driver since windows 8 was released. Never had a single issue on Lenovo think pads or Dell xps. Desktop had an issue when I bought a ryzen 3700x processor at launch, due to a bug in the cpu. A patch was released within a week iirc.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

pessimizer 4y ago

I'd say your experience is atypical. When I'm preparing to buy a new device that I expect to install Linux on, I look it up and make sure that everything will work (or the steps to take to ensure everything will work.) I buy the device, install Linux on first power-up, it installs fine, I never have any significant problems that I wasn't expecting. Instead of constantly accusing people of being religious zealots (in order to associate them with irrationality), how about just doing an hour of research before making your next attempt?

zac23or 4y ago
> When I'm preparing to buy a new device that I expect to install Linux on, I look it up and make sure that everything will work My friend did the same thing and in the end the Wifi didn't work. > Instead of constantly accusing people of being religious zealots Many people are religious about one thing or another, Linux is no exception, it's a fact of life. > how about just doing an hour of research before making your next attempt? Needing to research whether the hardware supports Linux is a clear indication that it shouldn't be used! Linux has been around for 30 years! if in 30 years the project has not solved the problem of drivers, it is a shame and a total failure in this area, because billions are invested in Linux per year.

npteljes 4y ago

I agree with your assessment. Linux and open source is, very often, an aftermarket solution. As such, it lags in things like hardware support, design trends, integration with other products. In fact, this is one of the things Microsoft made sure with their business tactics regarding Windows: that Windows should be the primary PC platform. They did their hardest to support this software-wise, with things like backward compatibility, and with ruthless business deals, bundling, support and discounts for govs and schools, and by letting people pirate it to their hearts' content. The result is what we see today: Windows everywhere, every hardware supports Windows, every software runs on Windows. Plug and play. (With caveats of course, for example I have an USB wifi stick that makes Win10 BSOD the moment I disconnect it. Linux has no problem with it.) That said, I lucked out with my Linux experience. Everything I need works well, and I don't tinker with it more than I did with Windows. The main difference is that I have much more control over the situation, compared to Windows' typical unhelpful messages and opaque environment.

zac23or 4y ago
> ings Microsoft made sure with their business tactics regarding Windows: that Windows should be the primary PC platform...and with ruthless business deals Yes, without doubt, Microsoft make a lot of bad things to Windows being the primary pc platform. > That said, I lucked out with my Linux experience. Everything I need works well My friend who uses a USB dongle for Wifi says the same thing!
- smoldesu 4y ago
  > My friend who uses a USB dongle for Wifi says the same thing! I reckon you may have not tried a recent Linux kernel. Network hardware support is definitely better than MacOS at this point, and is creeping up on Windows in the consumer segment. I've used 5 different devices from 5 different manufacturers on Linux. Only one of them had a WiFi issue, which was only because the distro I was testing didn't ship with the specific driver for it (FWIW it was also a Surface product). It is curious though, I do see people who share your sentiment but, like the parent comment, I legitimately have no problems with it. My OEM Lenovo desktop from 2014 worked just fine. My new custom-built gaming PC with proprietary everything seems to work fine, too. I genuinely struggle to find devices that run Linux poorly, outside of maybe the gaming laptop space and Macbook market. It's probably one of those Paretto principle things: 80% of people will be offended by the 20% of drivers that are missing from your kernel.

kobalsky 4y ago

I understand that your point is about Linux zealots, but this isn't correct: > linux doesn't support the motherboard wifi chip Some drivers are included with the kernel and have 1st class support due to their importance but most wireless and video depends on manufacturers due to changing hardware and licencing issues. You are a software developer, you know this should read "the manufacturer didn't release a Linux driver".

zac23or 4y ago
Regardless of why the driver doesn't exist, the result is the same: Linux does not support the motherboard Wifi chip. Probably many Linux problems are not just technical problems, but political problems or other types of problems, but the result is the same: A terrible user experience.
- smoldesu 4y ago
  > Linux does not support the motherboard Wifi chip. I'm sorry, this is a bald-faced lie. Every motherboard I've ever purchased has worked just fine with Linux networking out-of-the-box. If you bought a motherboard that doesn't support Linux, then I'm sorry to hear. That doesn't apply to everything though, so I'd recommend revising your wording in the future. It's kinda like complaining that your new Nvidia GPU won't get recognized by your Mac Pro, therefore all GPUs are incompatible with MacOS!
  - zac23or 4y ago
    > This is a bald-faced lie I another thing people say: You're a liar. > That doesn't apply to everything I never said that. And I never said that every GPU is incompatible with Linux.

jancsika 4y ago

> In ten years I never got hardware that runs 100% on Linux. You've never used XPS 13 Developer's Edition. It ships with Ubuntu. The hardware runs 100% on Linux. I even checked with the intel GPU command that measures whether it's actually using accelerated video. Everything works on Firefox and Chromium. Well, except those Reddit videos that use the web blob API, but those seem to buffer and screw up on every OS I've ever used.

zac23or 4y ago
> Well, except those Reddit videos Reddit videos are something, it is horrible on all systems/networks I've tested. :D

idonotknowwhy 4y ago

I've been using Linux as my daily driver since windows 8 was released. Never had a single issue on Lenovo think pads or Dell xps. Desktop had an issue when I bought a ryzen 3700x processor at launch, due to a bug in the cpu. A patch was released within a week iirc.