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I've been explaining why an abortifacient (as birth control) is different from getting an abortion knowing your pregnant. Homicide? Yes. Murder? I don't think s

I've been explaining why an abortifacient (as birth control) is different from getting an abortion knowing your pregnant. Homicide? Yes. Murder? I don't think so. I don't even think these should be illegal. There are wrongs we commit all the time that logically can only go on our conscience. I use manslaughter as an analogy to explain gradations of homicide in terms of intent. I've been very clear that I don't think abortifacients as birth control make sense to be prosecuted at all, they aren't manslaughter in the legal sense because there's no way of knowing if anyone was killed or not! It looks like your Louisiana case fixed a law that didn't make those important exceptions explicit (probably because it was a useless law anyway, only to signal a pro-life stance with no legal weight to it, but who knows?). This is good, the exceptions mentioned are just and necessary. Not all homicides are illegal, all weigh on the conscience though - whether they be a soldier in war or a doctor performing euthanasia. Certain classes of homicide should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law to provide a just society and minimize the repercussions of injustice by penalizing perpetrators. In the case of a person making a conscious choice to end the life of an unborn baby they are making a decision that humans have no right to make in a way that leaves clear evidence and can be prosecuted. By the way, I personally think that doctors performing abortions should be prosecuted and not mothers. Christians believe that all human beings are corrupt to the core. We take every aspect of the technological progress we've made and twist it to evil purposes, that's just what we do as humans. This is related to our dignity, our capacity for doing things gives us a unique capacity for evil. Some evil we do has terrible repercussions on the world at large and abortion is one of these evils. It unnaturally shapes our demographics in this country and in every country where it is allowed unrestricted. For example the black population of America is unnaturally small in proportion to the white population because of Roe, and there are more men than women in India and China because of abortion. Anti-abortion legislation doesn't help get those millions of lives back, it doesn't give them justice either. In my mind its primary purpose is to curb the wrongdoing in the future.

SigmundA 4y ago
>I've been explaining why an abortifacient (as birth control) is different from getting an abortion knowing your pregnant. Homicide? Yes. Murder? I don't think so. I don't even think these should be illegal. There are wrongs we commit all the time that logically can only go on our conscience. Your stance is a zygote is a person, yet you believe that killing one should not be prosecuted in the same manner as killing a born human it seems. Manslaughter does not require intent and is still a crime, either you believe the zygote is a person or you don't, if a person then the laws regarding killing a person should be the same. If you are ok with different laws between a zygote and born human then you must believe the zygote is less than human. >This is good, the exceptions mentioned are just and necessary. Something as serious as homicide should be codified at the federal level right? Why would you leave something like that for interpretations between states? >Christians believe that all human beings are corrupt to the core. Christians also believe god created everything including designing humans and their corruption correct? Where did evil come from? Did god create evil or is evil bigger than god and was not created by him? Again where did evil come from?
- f154hfds 4y ago
  I think this discussion is not a good faith discussion anymore. If you kill someone and no one ever knew including you then law is kind of irrelevant right? A zygote is a human but not all killings of humans are equivalent in the eyes of the law, circumstances are important. That's justice. > Something as serious as homicide should be codified at the federal level right? Why would you leave something like that for interpretations between states? Believe it or not, the exact opposite is true: https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/resources/state-crimes-vs-federal-crimes.htm https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/resources/state-crimes... > Christians also believe god created everything including designing humans and their corruption correct? Genesis 3 describes the origin of sin. God created people with the capacity to sin, He even set up a situation where they had complete agency of choice in the matter which is pretty amazing philosophically with the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. However, we used this agency to choose sin and continue to do so to this day. 'Evil' as it pertains to human sin is a choice to behave contrary to God's will. God gave us the ability to be evil but didn't make us evil. In some sense it's part of the dignity of humankind that we have the capacity to do evil at all, but it is also our fall. With the fall in Genesis 3 we opened a rift between God and humankind, basically we ruined the relationship. We believe Christ gives a way to reconcile the relationship by paying the price for our evil on the cross.
  - SigmundA 4y ago
    >I think this discussion is not a good faith discussion anymore. Is that what you call someone not believing the same thing as you and trying to get specific answers to logical questions? I am trying to understand why someone seems so fixated on personhood beginning at conception. I personally believe there is no good good line during pregnancy when someone becomes a person, it is a process that takes time, anything we pick is arbitrary to satisfy human law. For instance a zygote can split and become two people (identical twins) so I would think if you believe in a soul as the basis for personhood, ensoulment can not occur at conception. Roe was a compromise, an imperfect law for a complicated matter where by it got progressively harder to get an abortion as the pregnancy progresses. Not only did it grant the right to an abortion, it also prevented it later in pregnancy, that is now left to the state. >If you kill someone and no one ever knew including you then law is kind of irrelevant right? Getting away with manslaughter does not change the fact whether it is a crime. You seem to be avoiding answering the question, do you believe taking birth control that prevents implantation is a crime? Regardless of the ability to prosecute, is it a crime of manslaughter? If not then obviously you do not think the same law applies to zygotes as people. >Believe it or not, the exact opposite is true So you are ok with a state outlawing abortion with no exceptions as Louisiana had for some time and there should be no federal protection for that situation? Do you believe Griswold vs Connecticut should be overturned as well? >'Evil' as it pertains to human sin is a choice to behave contrary to God's will. How can the universe and anything it which was created by god act contrary to his will? That makes no logical sense, it was his will to design it as such in every detail. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the buck stops there. He also is omnipotent and knows everything including the actions we will take, or do you believe he does not in fact know everything? If god has no control over our actions and is even surprised by them then there must be a source of entropy that did not come from god, who created that? >we opened a rift between God and humankind, basically we ruined the relationship. How does one ruin a relationship with their designer unless the designer is schizophrenic? If I design a program I do not blame the program for bugs, that's stupid, it is my failing. Perhaps there was an OS or hardware failure that caused the problem, but as god I designed them too! There is no one else to blame, certainly not my creation.

SigmundA 4y ago

>I've been explaining why an abortifacient (as birth control) is different from getting an abortion knowing your pregnant. Homicide? Yes. Murder? I don't think so. I don't even think these should be illegal. There are wrongs we commit all the time that logically can only go on our conscience. Your stance is a zygote is a person, yet you believe that killing one should not be prosecuted in the same manner as killing a born human it seems. Manslaughter does not require intent and is still a crime, either you believe the zygote is a person or you don't, if a person then the laws regarding killing a person should be the same. If you are ok with different laws between a zygote and born human then you must believe the zygote is less than human. >This is good, the exceptions mentioned are just and necessary. Something as serious as homicide should be codified at the federal level right? Why would you leave something like that for interpretations between states? >Christians believe that all human beings are corrupt to the core. Christians also believe god created everything including designing humans and their corruption correct? Where did evil come from? Did god create evil or is evil bigger than god and was not created by him? Again where did evil come from?

f154hfds 4y ago
I think this discussion is not a good faith discussion anymore. If you kill someone and no one ever knew including you then law is kind of irrelevant right? A zygote is a human but not all killings of humans are equivalent in the eyes of the law, circumstances are important. That's justice. > Something as serious as homicide should be codified at the federal level right? Why would you leave something like that for interpretations between states? Believe it or not, the exact opposite is true: https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/resources/state-crimes-vs-federal-crimes.htm https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/resources/state-crimes... > Christians also believe god created everything including designing humans and their corruption correct? Genesis 3 describes the origin of sin. God created people with the capacity to sin, He even set up a situation where they had complete agency of choice in the matter which is pretty amazing philosophically with the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. However, we used this agency to choose sin and continue to do so to this day. 'Evil' as it pertains to human sin is a choice to behave contrary to God's will. God gave us the ability to be evil but didn't make us evil. In some sense it's part of the dignity of humankind that we have the capacity to do evil at all, but it is also our fall. With the fall in Genesis 3 we opened a rift between God and humankind, basically we ruined the relationship. We believe Christ gives a way to reconcile the relationship by paying the price for our evil on the cross.
- SigmundA 4y ago
  >I think this discussion is not a good faith discussion anymore. Is that what you call someone not believing the same thing as you and trying to get specific answers to logical questions? I am trying to understand why someone seems so fixated on personhood beginning at conception. I personally believe there is no good good line during pregnancy when someone becomes a person, it is a process that takes time, anything we pick is arbitrary to satisfy human law. For instance a zygote can split and become two people (identical twins) so I would think if you believe in a soul as the basis for personhood, ensoulment can not occur at conception. Roe was a compromise, an imperfect law for a complicated matter where by it got progressively harder to get an abortion as the pregnancy progresses. Not only did it grant the right to an abortion, it also prevented it later in pregnancy, that is now left to the state. >If you kill someone and no one ever knew including you then law is kind of irrelevant right? Getting away with manslaughter does not change the fact whether it is a crime. You seem to be avoiding answering the question, do you believe taking birth control that prevents implantation is a crime? Regardless of the ability to prosecute, is it a crime of manslaughter? If not then obviously you do not think the same law applies to zygotes as people. >Believe it or not, the exact opposite is true So you are ok with a state outlawing abortion with no exceptions as Louisiana had for some time and there should be no federal protection for that situation? Do you believe Griswold vs Connecticut should be overturned as well? >'Evil' as it pertains to human sin is a choice to behave contrary to God's will. How can the universe and anything it which was created by god act contrary to his will? That makes no logical sense, it was his will to design it as such in every detail. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the buck stops there. He also is omnipotent and knows everything including the actions we will take, or do you believe he does not in fact know everything? If god has no control over our actions and is even surprised by them then there must be a source of entropy that did not come from god, who created that? >we opened a rift between God and humankind, basically we ruined the relationship. How does one ruin a relationship with their designer unless the designer is schizophrenic? If I design a program I do not blame the program for bugs, that's stupid, it is my failing. Perhaps there was an OS or hardware failure that caused the problem, but as god I designed them too! There is no one else to blame, certainly not my creation.