5 ms·

Lack of a Masters pretty much ended my ability to teach some intro programming courses according to the accreditation board. So, the answer to the question in

Lack of a Masters pretty much ended my ability to teach some intro programming courses according to the accreditation board. So, the answer to the question in reverse. Damn shame given some future plans, but experience isn't the equivalent.

phpisthebest 4y ago
Outside of money I have never seen a logical explanation for why we has a society have not created a purely experienced based "degree", something that if you have say 6 years experience in a field of Computer Science, and can demonstrate either with testing or work product the same level of knowledge one would gain from a 4 year degree program just issue the degree. Even with money, let me pay $10-20,000 , take a test, prove my experience, and bam I now have a degree... Do the same for masters, make it 8-10 years experience
- bigDinosaur 4y ago
  What would be the actual value of a 'degree' here as opposed to just the work experience? This sounds as much a reason to just ignore the idea of degrees as being uniquely meaningful which is...probably fine. But, degrees and work experience are not (or should not) be the same thing.
  - phpisthebest 4y ago
    Why? The stated purpose of a degree is to educate a person in field of study, the culmination of which is a piece of paper that is suppose to signify to society that you have attained a set level of knowledge in a field of study. Work experience can convey that same level of knowledge, thus the purpose of an experience based degree would be to signify to society that you have attained a set level of knowledge in a field of study.
    - Mountain_Skies 4y ago
      Work experience can be difficult to evaluate, especially since most companies have no incentive to cooperate with the degree granting institution. In addition to the process consuming company resources, there may be sensitive business knowledge they don't want revealed. There's also the issue of turnover making knowledge of an employee's experience with the company very limited. Same for human memory decay or simply others in the company not knowing what the person was doing, even if it was valuable.
      - phpisthebest 4y ago
        While I can agree with that, I fail to see how this does not also apply to collegiate based education. Having interviewed several recent graduates the level of knowledge shown is not on par with what I would expect, it seems from my personal experience that college is more of an attendance standard than educational standards, what years ago we would call diploma mills, pay the fee, attend the class, get the degree, seems to the wider state of the "higher" education system today
        bigDinosaur 4y ago
        This to me simply means we're failing with educational standards. Which, well, we probably are. At the same time, it's not as if professional development is a given with 'years of experience' and companies frequently fail to develop people in any meaningful sense. There's merit to the idea of awarding a college degree if you can pass all the assessment, without necessarily taking the classes, but that's a different thing again. Ideally, college should be about introducing theory and reasoning which gives a solid understanding of the field in a highly focused manner that an employer almost certainly won't provide. I certainly know people who consider their college experiences extremely rigorous - electrical engineers and so on, so it's absolutely not the case that college can't be rigorous (for any field).
        phpisthebest 4y ago
        Another comment in this thread seems to have hit on one of the problems, Universities are focused not on vocational education, which is the reason most people attend university , and what most employers expect when they demand a degree from their employee's. Instead universities are focused on "academic qualification" which may have limited to no real world vocational value . >At the same time, it's not as if professional development is a given with 'years of experience' and companies frequently fail to develop people in any meaningful sense. I 100% agree with this, I know a few "experienced" people that are not really experienced, which is why I did not simply state that one should automatically attain this experienced based degree simply on chronological paid experience but rather experience + something else Someone bought up WGU's method of crediting some life experience, that is a good start but I don't think WGU's program goes far enough but it is on the right path, and I which more institutions would start doing more things like them. >I certainly know people who consider their college experiences extremely rigorous - electrical engineers and so on, so it's absolutely not the case that college can't be rigorous (for any field). Again I agree here, some fields may lend themselves to an actual degree program, Doctors for example. I think my ideal society would be less than 30% of jobs requiring a post secondary education degree, the vast majority of employment should be encompassed by regular primary / secondary (k-12) education, and maybe direct vocational training (paid by employers) Instead we pushed the narrative the most jobs need post secondary education or to be successful one must get a degree. Allowing for experienced based degree's , IMO would start to open other avenues and maybe start a shift in human resources to start looking at other things that just a check mark for "has degree" true or false Of course the extreme cost of education, and the debt crisis is also doing that slowly
    - MaxBarraclough 4y ago
      > Work experience can convey that same level of knowledge What kind of work experience would give you the breadth and depth of knowledge of someone with a degree in maths or physics? Having a career in software development does not demonstrate a degree-level knowledge of any academic field.
      - phpisthebest 4y ago
        Having a career in software development, does not demonstrate a degree-level knowledge of software development degree, really?
        MaxBarraclough 4y ago
        A software engineering degree is an academic degree, not a vocational certificate. Look at this syllabus for a 4-year degree in software engineering. [0] It's broadly similar to what we'd expect of a computer science degree. Topics include: • Computer architecture • Compilers • Computer graphics • Cryptography • Deep learning • Software verification The average self-taught web developer has a working knowledge of none of these fields. [0] https://www.imperial.ac.uk/study/ug/courses/computing-department/meng-computing-software-engineering-/ https://www.imperial.ac.uk/study/ug/courses/computing-depart...
        phpisthebest 4y ago
        First I never said anything about web development... That said then there is a clear disconnect between employment, and degree's Employers often are requiring these "software engineering" degree's for basic level software development, and /or web development That is the the point of my comment, often time people feel required to spend 10's or 100's of thousands on a degree for the sole purpose of attaining employment as a software developer. If they are being educated in a way that does not prepare them for that job then the degree is less than worthless, and it an out right scam
        MaxBarraclough 4y ago
- Mountain_Skies 4y ago
  The "univers" in university means something. A university degree is about more than just the knowledge gained in one's major. It's a signal that the person has had exposure to the breadth of human knowledge. It might be a millimeter deep but the breadth gives them context in which to operate in society. None of that means this knowledge can't be acquired individually, just like having a particular major doesn't preclude someone who didn't attend university from gaining that knowledge on their own. It's simply a signal that this particular bundle of knowledge has been seen and at least understood at a surface level. In theory that should allow those evaluating the candidate to skip over testing competency and knowledge in these areas outside of the job's focus but still relevant to functioning in society. Many schools will give credit for life experience, some through testing, some through interviews and reviews of one's professional work. IIRC, Western Governors University is one of the leaders in this practice.
  - MaxBarraclough 4y ago
    > A university degree is about more than just the knowledge gained in one's major. It's a signal that the person has had exposure to the breadth of human knowledge. It might be a millimeter deep but the breadth gives them context in which to operate in society. This may be true of the USA, but not universally. Here in the UK we don't have the concept of a major at all. An undergraduate student typically only takes modules pertaining to their chosen field, and perhaps a small number of more general modules on, say, study skills and writing.
- MaxBarraclough 4y ago
  > if you have say 6 years experience in a field of Computer Science Such as what? An industry research position in computer science? Sounds very unlikely, but I suppose possible. Middle-of-the-road software development experience is not the equivalent of a degree in computer science, or software engineering, or anything else. (Interestingly, the University of Cambridge may award you a PhD if you're a Cambridge graduate who has made a PhD-level research contribution to an academic field. [0]) If you have work experience, put it on your resumé. > let me pay $10-20,000 , take a test What test? The full suite of coursework assignments and written exams for every module in a 3 or 4 year taught degree course? > Do the same for masters, make it 8-10 years experience 10 years experience of what? For a degree in what? You could have a long and successful web-dev career with almost zero knowledge of computer science. [0] https://www.cambridgestudents.cam.ac.uk/your-course/examinations/graduate-exam-information/higher-degrees/phd-special-regulations https://www.cambridgestudents.cam.ac.uk/your-course/examinat...
- giaour 4y ago
  > Even with money, let me pay $10-20,000 , take a test, prove my experience, and bam I now have a degree... The system you're proposing sounds ripe for abuse; wouldn't universities get the most money by lowering standards? You can get an honorary or extra muros doctorate if you make a significant contribution to the field, but explicitly tying it to a fee doesn't seem like a great plan.
  - phpisthebest 4y ago
    >>wouldn't universities get the most money by lowering standards? You making the case that they have not done exactly that? That they do not attempt to get as many students through, and put pressure on professors to pass students for the purpose of getting as much tuition as possible? Given the statics, and the looming student loan debt crisis I am pretty sure the evidence is to the contrary of your statement
    - giaour 4y ago
      Yes, it's currently difficult to sell a degree because you have to fake the whole shebang. There are some institutions that do exactly what you propose, but market forces leave only the ones with zero standards standing. They are called "diploma mills," they have existed for a very long time, and accreditation bodies stripped them of official status long ago. There are plenty of places that let you test out of individual classes, but testing out of a full degree for a five figure fee is one gigantic perverse incentive.
      - phpisthebest 4y ago
        Instead they have just added attendance requirements to the old school "diploma mill" situation, so now instead of just paying a fee, you have to pay a fee and waste a bunch of time to still not learn anything, and dont have to prove you learned anything

phpisthebest 4y ago

Outside of money I have never seen a logical explanation for why we has a society have not created a purely experienced based "degree", something that if you have say 6 years experience in a field of Computer Science, and can demonstrate either with testing or work product the same level of knowledge one would gain from a 4 year degree program just issue the degree. Even with money, let me pay $10-20,000 , take a test, prove my experience, and bam I now have a degree... Do the same for masters, make it 8-10 years experience

bigDinosaur 4y ago
What would be the actual value of a 'degree' here as opposed to just the work experience? This sounds as much a reason to just ignore the idea of degrees as being uniquely meaningful which is...probably fine. But, degrees and work experience are not (or should not) be the same thing.
- phpisthebest 4y ago
  Why? The stated purpose of a degree is to educate a person in field of study, the culmination of which is a piece of paper that is suppose to signify to society that you have attained a set level of knowledge in a field of study. Work experience can convey that same level of knowledge, thus the purpose of an experience based degree would be to signify to society that you have attained a set level of knowledge in a field of study.
  - Mountain_Skies 4y ago
    Work experience can be difficult to evaluate, especially since most companies have no incentive to cooperate with the degree granting institution. In addition to the process consuming company resources, there may be sensitive business knowledge they don't want revealed. There's also the issue of turnover making knowledge of an employee's experience with the company very limited. Same for human memory decay or simply others in the company not knowing what the person was doing, even if it was valuable.
    - phpisthebest 4y ago
      While I can agree with that, I fail to see how this does not also apply to collegiate based education. Having interviewed several recent graduates the level of knowledge shown is not on par with what I would expect, it seems from my personal experience that college is more of an attendance standard than educational standards, what years ago we would call diploma mills, pay the fee, attend the class, get the degree, seems to the wider state of the "higher" education system today
      - bigDinosaur 4y ago
        This to me simply means we're failing with educational standards. Which, well, we probably are. At the same time, it's not as if professional development is a given with 'years of experience' and companies frequently fail to develop people in any meaningful sense. There's merit to the idea of awarding a college degree if you can pass all the assessment, without necessarily taking the classes, but that's a different thing again. Ideally, college should be about introducing theory and reasoning which gives a solid understanding of the field in a highly focused manner that an employer almost certainly won't provide. I certainly know people who consider their college experiences extremely rigorous - electrical engineers and so on, so it's absolutely not the case that college can't be rigorous (for any field).
        phpisthebest 4y ago
        Another comment in this thread seems to have hit on one of the problems, Universities are focused not on vocational education, which is the reason most people attend university , and what most employers expect when they demand a degree from their employee's. Instead universities are focused on "academic qualification" which may have limited to no real world vocational value . >At the same time, it's not as if professional development is a given with 'years of experience' and companies frequently fail to develop people in any meaningful sense. I 100% agree with this, I know a few "experienced" people that are not really experienced, which is why I did not simply state that one should automatically attain this experienced based degree simply on chronological paid experience but rather experience + something else Someone bought up WGU's method of crediting some life experience, that is a good start but I don't think WGU's program goes far enough but it is on the right path, and I which more institutions would start doing more things like them. >I certainly know people who consider their college experiences extremely rigorous - electrical engineers and so on, so it's absolutely not the case that college can't be rigorous (for any field). Again I agree here, some fields may lend themselves to an actual degree program, Doctors for example. I think my ideal society would be less than 30% of jobs requiring a post secondary education degree, the vast majority of employment should be encompassed by regular primary / secondary (k-12) education, and maybe direct vocational training (paid by employers) Instead we pushed the narrative the most jobs need post secondary education or to be successful one must get a degree. Allowing for experienced based degree's , IMO would start to open other avenues and maybe start a shift in human resources to start looking at other things that just a check mark for "has degree" true or false Of course the extreme cost of education, and the debt crisis is also doing that slowly
  - MaxBarraclough 4y ago
    > Work experience can convey that same level of knowledge What kind of work experience would give you the breadth and depth of knowledge of someone with a degree in maths or physics? Having a career in software development does not demonstrate a degree-level knowledge of any academic field.
    - phpisthebest 4y ago
      Having a career in software development, does not demonstrate a degree-level knowledge of software development degree, really?
      - MaxBarraclough 4y ago
        A software engineering degree is an academic degree, not a vocational certificate. Look at this syllabus for a 4-year degree in software engineering. [0] It's broadly similar to what we'd expect of a computer science degree. Topics include: • Computer architecture • Compilers • Computer graphics • Cryptography • Deep learning • Software verification The average self-taught web developer has a working knowledge of none of these fields. [0] https://www.imperial.ac.uk/study/ug/courses/computing-department/meng-computing-software-engineering-/ https://www.imperial.ac.uk/study/ug/courses/computing-depart...
        phpisthebest 4y ago
        First I never said anything about web development... That said then there is a clear disconnect between employment, and degree's Employers often are requiring these "software engineering" degree's for basic level software development, and /or web development That is the the point of my comment, often time people feel required to spend 10's or 100's of thousands on a degree for the sole purpose of attaining employment as a software developer. If they are being educated in a way that does not prepare them for that job then the degree is less than worthless, and it an out right scam
        MaxBarraclough 4y ago
Mountain_Skies 4y ago
The "univers" in university means something. A university degree is about more than just the knowledge gained in one's major. It's a signal that the person has had exposure to the breadth of human knowledge. It might be a millimeter deep but the breadth gives them context in which to operate in society. None of that means this knowledge can't be acquired individually, just like having a particular major doesn't preclude someone who didn't attend university from gaining that knowledge on their own. It's simply a signal that this particular bundle of knowledge has been seen and at least understood at a surface level. In theory that should allow those evaluating the candidate to skip over testing competency and knowledge in these areas outside of the job's focus but still relevant to functioning in society. Many schools will give credit for life experience, some through testing, some through interviews and reviews of one's professional work. IIRC, Western Governors University is one of the leaders in this practice.
- MaxBarraclough 4y ago
  > A university degree is about more than just the knowledge gained in one's major. It's a signal that the person has had exposure to the breadth of human knowledge. It might be a millimeter deep but the breadth gives them context in which to operate in society. This may be true of the USA, but not universally. Here in the UK we don't have the concept of a major at all. An undergraduate student typically only takes modules pertaining to their chosen field, and perhaps a small number of more general modules on, say, study skills and writing.
MaxBarraclough 4y ago
> if you have say 6 years experience in a field of Computer Science Such as what? An industry research position in computer science? Sounds very unlikely, but I suppose possible. Middle-of-the-road software development experience is not the equivalent of a degree in computer science, or software engineering, or anything else. (Interestingly, the University of Cambridge may award you a PhD if you're a Cambridge graduate who has made a PhD-level research contribution to an academic field. [0]) If you have work experience, put it on your resumé. > let me pay $10-20,000 , take a test What test? The full suite of coursework assignments and written exams for every module in a 3 or 4 year taught degree course? > Do the same for masters, make it 8-10 years experience 10 years experience of what? For a degree in what? You could have a long and successful web-dev career with almost zero knowledge of computer science. [0] https://www.cambridgestudents.cam.ac.uk/your-course/examinations/graduate-exam-information/higher-degrees/phd-special-regulations https://www.cambridgestudents.cam.ac.uk/your-course/examinat...
giaour 4y ago
> Even with money, let me pay $10-20,000 , take a test, prove my experience, and bam I now have a degree... The system you're proposing sounds ripe for abuse; wouldn't universities get the most money by lowering standards? You can get an honorary or extra muros doctorate if you make a significant contribution to the field, but explicitly tying it to a fee doesn't seem like a great plan.
- phpisthebest 4y ago
  >>wouldn't universities get the most money by lowering standards? You making the case that they have not done exactly that? That they do not attempt to get as many students through, and put pressure on professors to pass students for the purpose of getting as much tuition as possible? Given the statics, and the looming student loan debt crisis I am pretty sure the evidence is to the contrary of your statement
  - giaour 4y ago
    Yes, it's currently difficult to sell a degree because you have to fake the whole shebang. There are some institutions that do exactly what you propose, but market forces leave only the ones with zero standards standing. They are called "diploma mills," they have existed for a very long time, and accreditation bodies stripped them of official status long ago. There are plenty of places that let you test out of individual classes, but testing out of a full degree for a five figure fee is one gigantic perverse incentive.
    - phpisthebest 4y ago
      Instead they have just added attendance requirements to the old school "diploma mill" situation, so now instead of just paying a fee, you have to pay a fee and waste a bunch of time to still not learn anything, and dont have to prove you learned anything