8 ms·

As a person who has tried setting up Linux like 5-10 times over the years this sounds exactly like my experience and basically what I assume Linux use is always

As a person who has tried setting up Linux like 5-10 times over the years this sounds exactly like my experience and basically what I assume Linux use is always like. It’s just like cars, there are people who are super comfortable just tinkering around with cars and fixing crap and say “this car is great” and if I tried to drive it it’d break down 5 minutes in and I would consider it a total loss.

29athrowaway 4y ago
Most Dell equipment supports Linux well, out of the box.
pizza234 4y ago
I've been using Linux professionally for a decade, on many machines (desktop/laptop), and the compatibility is really hardware-dependent. It's "for tinkerers" on some hardware, and "fully mainstream" on other. Choosing a Microsoft laptop to use Linux is asking for trouble :) I had two of them, and Microsoft had this awful idea of the connected standby, which caused standby/suspend problems (power-hungry standby, which is a very serious problem on a laptop). At least the older machines should now have a good upstream support, in other words, everything working out of the box, with the exception of touch (Linux is just not there). Regarding other brands, it depends. I remember IBM/Lenovo (Thinkpads) as always just working out of the box. Dell used to be also very compatible, but paradoxically, the Dell XPS developer edition is marketing garbage (it's not very compatible as they claim). I've installed Linux on a couple of budget computers and they worked fine. I suspect that low-end laptops tend to be much more compatible, since they use more common/cheap components. Bluetooth has started to be compatible just in the last couple of years - bluez is poor software (and Ubuntu has been sloppy in handling it), but it finally reached a usable level. I don't remember having to do any tweak on desktop machine, except the time where I had a very modern Ryzen that was supported by very recent kernels only.
- kreetx 4y ago
  AFAIK Macbooks are slso mostly supported, albeit with a lag (e.g ATM graphics supporton M1's GPU is not ready yet). Also had to tweak kernel with a recent Ryzen GPU a few years ago on a desktop, but after that it worked. (Now the tweak isn't required anymore.)
  - cmatthias 4y ago
    I just went through trying to install Linux on my 2015 15” retina MacBook Pro (model 11,5 with Radeon dGPU) and it was not usable. Every distro I tried (Ubuntu, Pop OS, Fedora, and NixOS) had severe Bluetooth instability (most times the computer booted, Bluetooth worked for about 15 seconds after boot and then it would die completely until the next reboot). Graphics switching seems non functional on this model as well. I’m looking for an alternative when Apple stops supporting Mac OS on this machine, and I was surprised at how flakey the hardware was in Linux on a 7 year old machine.
    - kreetx 4y ago
      I have a 13" Macbook from the same year and it pretty much just works with Nixos. There was a bit of trouble getting Bluetooth working, but as I'm not using it much can't say for it's instability. What is graphics switching, there is one (integrated) GPU, no?
- EnKopVand 4y ago
  Have you ever had anything that resembled the experience or a MacBook Air with a M1? I have a windows running Lenovo t14 for work, and it’s a decent enough laptop but it’s sort of like the stone ages compared to my personal MacBook. It has a terrible mousepad, it’s bulky, it runs out of battery after a two hours even though its factory new (developer specs in non-tech enterprise), the screen isn’t very nice and it’s actually more expensive. I ask because I kind of want to get out of the closed ecosystem. Not so much because I dislike Apple but because I figure that with the way things are going for big American tech companies I’ll likely dislike them sooner or later. But I’ve never found a Linux (or windows) laptop that came close to the daily usage of a MacBook Air. Obviously I’m not in need of a powerhouse or a computer, weight, battery life and a good mousepad is my primary requirements, but yeah.
  - trelane 4y ago
    I have had excellent experiences with System76. They fully support Linux, and work hard to make sure the hardware works with Linux. Also, their support is very responsive, though limited to business hours. Putting Linux on Windows hardware is a mug's game.
  - Dudemeister_ 4y ago
    Have you tried an LG Gram? I got myself one, it is one of the closest laptops to a macbook air M1: - extremely light (my 14 inch is a little under 1kg), you'll absolutely feel the difference when holding it vs holding a macbook air M1, and it is very significant. - great screen - amazing keyboard - the fan is very quiet, but the laptop can get a bit warm under load - the touchpad is lacking on windows but is amazing on linux (I mainly use ubuntu / pop os) - expect 9-10 hours battery life in most use cases, it sometimes goes as high as 14h+ if you're simply surfing the web/reading or as low as 6 hours on heavy use When installing a linux distro, in some rare cases you might need to tweak a few bios option just to start the installation, but everything after that works out of the box.
    - phren0logy 4y ago
      That battery life is impressive! Thunderbolt 4 and a better selection of ports than the MacBook Air M1, also. But, as great as the screen is, looks like it falls short of the 12" MacBook screen. Same 8GB of RAM in the base model as the M1, but memory bandwidth not the same. And the processor isn't going to keep up. I mean, it's nice, but I picked the base model M1 Air about a year ago for $750 - still seems like the laptop to beat, if you can live with MacOS.
- Wowfunhappy 4y ago
  Which makes sense. If manufacturers designed laptops exclusively for Linux—only writing Linux drivers and rarely even testing Windows during product development—how well do we think Windows would run? Hardware designed to run one operating system isn't necessarily going to perform well with a different operating system, and expecting otherwise of every arbitrary machine on store shelves is unrealistic. Prospective buyers need to do research beforehand.
  - jeroenhd 4y ago
    You can see with the Steam Deck. Valve is slowly releasing drivers over time but in early stages Windows was inefficient, sound didn't work or didn't work well, sleep wasn't snappy, the list goes on. It had all the problems your average Linux install will encounter without the enthusiast-written drivers to work around manufacturers' lack of support. That said, the Steam Deck seems to be the first non-enthusiast device where the manufacturer actually cares. Even laptops that get sold with Ubuntu preinstalled from the factory don't seem to receive that much support over the years.
    - eropple 4y ago
      I'd say pretty confidently that Lenovo has done quite a bit of caring over the years. I've had a bunch of T-series ThinkPads that have been super good under Linux.
      - MediocreSysEgnr 4y ago
        This might have more to do with the glut of off-lease corporate ThinkPads being available at very competitive pricing for FOSS developers to pick up rather than any indication of Lenovo's commitment to FOSS.
- hdlothia 4y ago
  The dell XPS developer edition that comes with linux pre installed has worked great for me. What are your complaints?
  - bharrisonit 4y ago
    I've run debian on a non-dev xps 13 for years trouble-free. My biggest gripe is docking station compatibility with the Dell TB16 which, to be fair, is largely own fault. Suspending the laptop while connected to three ext displays and input devices, then spinning it back up before re-connection produces some gnarly results.
    - bittercynic 4y ago
      Arch linux on non-dev xps 13 here. Install went smoothly and it's been working very well for the past few years. Admittedly, the trackpad is not as awesome as Apple's, but it's adequate by my standards.
  - pizza234 4y ago
    These are two acknowledged issues on Ubuntu (which is supposed to be fully supported): 1. sleep draining batteries: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1808957 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1808957 2. keyboard lights turning on even when disabled: https://ubuntu-mate.community/t/keyboard-light-keeps-turning-on-after-login-and-or-unlock/6914 https://ubuntu-mate.community/t/keyboard-light-keeps-turning... The second is just annoying; the first is serious (for a laptop).
- csdvrx 4y ago
  > Choosing a Microsoft laptop to use Linux is asking for trouble :) Not true anymore. > I had two of them, and Microsoft had this awful idea of the connected standby, which caused standby/suspend problems (power-hungry standby, which is a very serious problem on a laptop). When? Which models? ACPI S01x when well done works better than ACPI S3, and Linux support for S01x is now getting quite good. On a X1 nano, I've got less than 0.2%/h of power draw: so 10h of sleep consumes about 2% battery On the X1 Fold, I was able to reduce that to about 0.5%/h after some workaround for Intel drivers bugs: cf https://csdvrx.github.io/ https://csdvrx.github.io/ or just the graph https://csdvrx.github.io/X1_Fold_(20RL_20RK)_Optimization/pasted_image001.png https://csdvrx.github.io/X1_Fold_(20RL_20RK)_Optimization/pa... It's still a work in progress, but I can't remember ACPI S3 consuming less that 5% overnight and resuming instantly. > I don't remember having to do any tweak on desktop machine, except the time where I had a very modern Ryzen that was supported by very recent kernels only. Laptops often need more tweaks than desktops.
hanklazard 4y ago
Pop!_OS is a piece of cake to install and has been my daily driver on a Lenovo CX1 for the past 3-4 years. (I’m assuming your comment is referring to Linux in general, not on a tablet). And I’m not a former CS major or anything. I’m on the verge of recommending it to my dad who only has experience with windows machines.
- timbit42 4y ago
  Lenovo hardware is known for being Linux compatible. Microsoft hardware is not. Let us know how it went when you try to install popos on a Microsoft Surface 2.
vanviegen 4y ago
I teach a university course for which we require students to install Linux on their Windows laptops, all of them different. These are overwhemingly inexperienced students that we give a short manual, mostly about tweaking a few bios settings before you insert the installation medium. Of the 35 students in my class, 25 completed the installation without issue, with all hardware (never asked about fingerprint scanners) running fine. The rest required some help from expert googlers like me and some patience, in most cases related to Nvidia drivers. We got all but two to work fine or well enough in the end. Having 5 to 10 consecutive bad experiences sounds like a fluke to me, given the 70% instant success rate I've seen.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- dwighttk 4y ago
  To be fair every time I’ve tried it has been on a cheap or free computer and I haven’t needed to get it running… I’d probably have gotten better results of it was my only option or if I went out and tried to plan my computer purchase to make Linux work. And this is extending back like 20 years, so it has, I’m sure, gotten better somewhat.
- chrisseaton 4y ago
  > I teach a university course for which we require students to install Linux on their Windows laptops Can’t they use a normal cloud instance or a VM?
  - vanviegen 4y ago
    Our first year consists of a pretty intense dive into programming, with many assignments for which we provide starter material. And for that we want all students to run a predictable environment. Also, dual booting helps some students to cleanly separate course work from gaming. :-) A few students (those whose laptops we could not convince to run Linux) work within a VM, but that experience is comparatively miserable.
    - 4y ago
highwaylights 4y ago
I don’t think it’s a Linux problem. It’s a trying to run Linux on arbitrary hardware problem. On one hand that’s kind of the whole point of open-source. Because it can be extended to support almost anything it usually is extended over time by someone else that has already had the same problems you do getting a thing to work. That’s not the same as just assuming everything already works without checking though. There are some very suitable laptops that would have had support out of the box.
- dwighttk 4y ago
  Oh yeah definitely. I bet the experience would be at least a little better if I had ever wanted to switch to Linux and spent money on the effort. But I bought the (perhaps unspoken?) promise that it would be an easy test drive to find a crappy old laptop and throw Ubuntu on it… and those test drives ended up with me not wanting to switch to Linux.
PontifexMinimus 4y ago
> As a person who has tried setting up Linux like 5-10 times over the years this sounds exactly like my experience and basically what I assume Linux use is always like. It's not my experience at all. When I buy a computer to run Linux I normally get one with Linux preinstalled (normally the latest LTS Ubuntu). Then if I ever need to upgrade to a more recent version of Ubuntu it generally goes smoothly.
aidenn0 4y ago
The Intel monoculture in laptops has been a boon for linux compatibility. A random mid-range laptop with the an Intel CPU, Intel WiFi chipset, and integrated graphics will usually run linux straight out of the box. Most webcams in laptops are UVC devices so also work. Desktops are somewhat more hit-and-miss, as are discrete GPUs (I hear the newer AMD GPU drivers are much improved, but have no personal experience with them).

29athrowaway 4y ago

Most Dell equipment supports Linux well, out of the box.

pizza234 4y ago

I've been using Linux professionally for a decade, on many machines (desktop/laptop), and the compatibility is really hardware-dependent. It's "for tinkerers" on some hardware, and "fully mainstream" on other. Choosing a Microsoft laptop to use Linux is asking for trouble :) I had two of them, and Microsoft had this awful idea of the connected standby, which caused standby/suspend problems (power-hungry standby, which is a very serious problem on a laptop). At least the older machines should now have a good upstream support, in other words, everything working out of the box, with the exception of touch (Linux is just not there). Regarding other brands, it depends. I remember IBM/Lenovo (Thinkpads) as always just working out of the box. Dell used to be also very compatible, but paradoxically, the Dell XPS developer edition is marketing garbage (it's not very compatible as they claim). I've installed Linux on a couple of budget computers and they worked fine. I suspect that low-end laptops tend to be much more compatible, since they use more common/cheap components. Bluetooth has started to be compatible just in the last couple of years - bluez is poor software (and Ubuntu has been sloppy in handling it), but it finally reached a usable level. I don't remember having to do any tweak on desktop machine, except the time where I had a very modern Ryzen that was supported by very recent kernels only.

kreetx 4y ago
AFAIK Macbooks are slso mostly supported, albeit with a lag (e.g ATM graphics supporton M1's GPU is not ready yet). Also had to tweak kernel with a recent Ryzen GPU a few years ago on a desktop, but after that it worked. (Now the tweak isn't required anymore.)
- cmatthias 4y ago
  I just went through trying to install Linux on my 2015 15” retina MacBook Pro (model 11,5 with Radeon dGPU) and it was not usable. Every distro I tried (Ubuntu, Pop OS, Fedora, and NixOS) had severe Bluetooth instability (most times the computer booted, Bluetooth worked for about 15 seconds after boot and then it would die completely until the next reboot). Graphics switching seems non functional on this model as well. I’m looking for an alternative when Apple stops supporting Mac OS on this machine, and I was surprised at how flakey the hardware was in Linux on a 7 year old machine.
  - kreetx 4y ago
    I have a 13" Macbook from the same year and it pretty much just works with Nixos. There was a bit of trouble getting Bluetooth working, but as I'm not using it much can't say for it's instability. What is graphics switching, there is one (integrated) GPU, no?
EnKopVand 4y ago
Have you ever had anything that resembled the experience or a MacBook Air with a M1? I have a windows running Lenovo t14 for work, and it’s a decent enough laptop but it’s sort of like the stone ages compared to my personal MacBook. It has a terrible mousepad, it’s bulky, it runs out of battery after a two hours even though its factory new (developer specs in non-tech enterprise), the screen isn’t very nice and it’s actually more expensive. I ask because I kind of want to get out of the closed ecosystem. Not so much because I dislike Apple but because I figure that with the way things are going for big American tech companies I’ll likely dislike them sooner or later. But I’ve never found a Linux (or windows) laptop that came close to the daily usage of a MacBook Air. Obviously I’m not in need of a powerhouse or a computer, weight, battery life and a good mousepad is my primary requirements, but yeah.
- trelane 4y ago
  I have had excellent experiences with System76. They fully support Linux, and work hard to make sure the hardware works with Linux. Also, their support is very responsive, though limited to business hours. Putting Linux on Windows hardware is a mug's game.
- Dudemeister_ 4y ago
  Have you tried an LG Gram? I got myself one, it is one of the closest laptops to a macbook air M1: - extremely light (my 14 inch is a little under 1kg), you'll absolutely feel the difference when holding it vs holding a macbook air M1, and it is very significant. - great screen - amazing keyboard - the fan is very quiet, but the laptop can get a bit warm under load - the touchpad is lacking on windows but is amazing on linux (I mainly use ubuntu / pop os) - expect 9-10 hours battery life in most use cases, it sometimes goes as high as 14h+ if you're simply surfing the web/reading or as low as 6 hours on heavy use When installing a linux distro, in some rare cases you might need to tweak a few bios option just to start the installation, but everything after that works out of the box.
  - phren0logy 4y ago
    That battery life is impressive! Thunderbolt 4 and a better selection of ports than the MacBook Air M1, also. But, as great as the screen is, looks like it falls short of the 12" MacBook screen. Same 8GB of RAM in the base model as the M1, but memory bandwidth not the same. And the processor isn't going to keep up. I mean, it's nice, but I picked the base model M1 Air about a year ago for $750 - still seems like the laptop to beat, if you can live with MacOS.
Wowfunhappy 4y ago
Which makes sense. If manufacturers designed laptops exclusively for Linux—only writing Linux drivers and rarely even testing Windows during product development—how well do we think Windows would run? Hardware designed to run one operating system isn't necessarily going to perform well with a different operating system, and expecting otherwise of every arbitrary machine on store shelves is unrealistic. Prospective buyers need to do research beforehand.
- jeroenhd 4y ago
  You can see with the Steam Deck. Valve is slowly releasing drivers over time but in early stages Windows was inefficient, sound didn't work or didn't work well, sleep wasn't snappy, the list goes on. It had all the problems your average Linux install will encounter without the enthusiast-written drivers to work around manufacturers' lack of support. That said, the Steam Deck seems to be the first non-enthusiast device where the manufacturer actually cares. Even laptops that get sold with Ubuntu preinstalled from the factory don't seem to receive that much support over the years.
  - eropple 4y ago
    I'd say pretty confidently that Lenovo has done quite a bit of caring over the years. I've had a bunch of T-series ThinkPads that have been super good under Linux.
    - MediocreSysEgnr 4y ago
      This might have more to do with the glut of off-lease corporate ThinkPads being available at very competitive pricing for FOSS developers to pick up rather than any indication of Lenovo's commitment to FOSS.
hdlothia 4y ago
The dell XPS developer edition that comes with linux pre installed has worked great for me. What are your complaints?
- bharrisonit 4y ago
  I've run debian on a non-dev xps 13 for years trouble-free. My biggest gripe is docking station compatibility with the Dell TB16 which, to be fair, is largely own fault. Suspending the laptop while connected to three ext displays and input devices, then spinning it back up before re-connection produces some gnarly results.
  - bittercynic 4y ago
    Arch linux on non-dev xps 13 here. Install went smoothly and it's been working very well for the past few years. Admittedly, the trackpad is not as awesome as Apple's, but it's adequate by my standards.
- pizza234 4y ago
  These are two acknowledged issues on Ubuntu (which is supposed to be fully supported): 1. sleep draining batteries: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1808957 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1808957 2. keyboard lights turning on even when disabled: https://ubuntu-mate.community/t/keyboard-light-keeps-turning-on-after-login-and-or-unlock/6914 https://ubuntu-mate.community/t/keyboard-light-keeps-turning... The second is just annoying; the first is serious (for a laptop).
csdvrx 4y ago
> Choosing a Microsoft laptop to use Linux is asking for trouble :) Not true anymore. > I had two of them, and Microsoft had this awful idea of the connected standby, which caused standby/suspend problems (power-hungry standby, which is a very serious problem on a laptop). When? Which models? ACPI S01x when well done works better than ACPI S3, and Linux support for S01x is now getting quite good. On a X1 nano, I've got less than 0.2%/h of power draw: so 10h of sleep consumes about 2% battery On the X1 Fold, I was able to reduce that to about 0.5%/h after some workaround for Intel drivers bugs: cf https://csdvrx.github.io/ https://csdvrx.github.io/ or just the graph https://csdvrx.github.io/X1_Fold_(20RL_20RK)_Optimization/pasted_image001.png https://csdvrx.github.io/X1_Fold_(20RL_20RK)_Optimization/pa... It's still a work in progress, but I can't remember ACPI S3 consuming less that 5% overnight and resuming instantly. > I don't remember having to do any tweak on desktop machine, except the time where I had a very modern Ryzen that was supported by very recent kernels only. Laptops often need more tweaks than desktops.

hanklazard 4y ago

Pop!_OS is a piece of cake to install and has been my daily driver on a Lenovo CX1 for the past 3-4 years. (I’m assuming your comment is referring to Linux in general, not on a tablet). And I’m not a former CS major or anything. I’m on the verge of recommending it to my dad who only has experience with windows machines.

timbit42 4y ago
Lenovo hardware is known for being Linux compatible. Microsoft hardware is not. Let us know how it went when you try to install popos on a Microsoft Surface 2.

vanviegen 4y ago

I teach a university course for which we require students to install Linux on their Windows laptops, all of them different. These are overwhemingly inexperienced students that we give a short manual, mostly about tweaking a few bios settings before you insert the installation medium. Of the 35 students in my class, 25 completed the installation without issue, with all hardware (never asked about fingerprint scanners) running fine. The rest required some help from expert googlers like me and some patience, in most cases related to Nvidia drivers. We got all but two to work fine or well enough in the end. Having 5 to 10 consecutive bad experiences sounds like a fluke to me, given the 70% instant success rate I've seen.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
dwighttk 4y ago
To be fair every time I’ve tried it has been on a cheap or free computer and I haven’t needed to get it running… I’d probably have gotten better results of it was my only option or if I went out and tried to plan my computer purchase to make Linux work. And this is extending back like 20 years, so it has, I’m sure, gotten better somewhat.
chrisseaton 4y ago
> I teach a university course for which we require students to install Linux on their Windows laptops Can’t they use a normal cloud instance or a VM?
- vanviegen 4y ago
  Our first year consists of a pretty intense dive into programming, with many assignments for which we provide starter material. And for that we want all students to run a predictable environment. Also, dual booting helps some students to cleanly separate course work from gaming. :-) A few students (those whose laptops we could not convince to run Linux) work within a VM, but that experience is comparatively miserable.
  - 4y ago

highwaylights 4y ago

I don’t think it’s a Linux problem. It’s a trying to run Linux on arbitrary hardware problem. On one hand that’s kind of the whole point of open-source. Because it can be extended to support almost anything it usually is extended over time by someone else that has already had the same problems you do getting a thing to work. That’s not the same as just assuming everything already works without checking though. There are some very suitable laptops that would have had support out of the box.

dwighttk 4y ago
Oh yeah definitely. I bet the experience would be at least a little better if I had ever wanted to switch to Linux and spent money on the effort. But I bought the (perhaps unspoken?) promise that it would be an easy test drive to find a crappy old laptop and throw Ubuntu on it… and those test drives ended up with me not wanting to switch to Linux.

PontifexMinimus 4y ago

> As a person who has tried setting up Linux like 5-10 times over the years this sounds exactly like my experience and basically what I assume Linux use is always like. It's not my experience at all. When I buy a computer to run Linux I normally get one with Linux preinstalled (normally the latest LTS Ubuntu). Then if I ever need to upgrade to a more recent version of Ubuntu it generally goes smoothly.

aidenn0 4y ago

The Intel monoculture in laptops has been a boon for linux compatibility. A random mid-range laptop with the an Intel CPU, Intel WiFi chipset, and integrated graphics will usually run linux straight out of the box. Most webcams in laptops are UVC devices so also work. Desktops are somewhat more hit-and-miss, as are discrete GPUs (I hear the newer AMD GPU drivers are much improved, but have no personal experience with them).