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They weren't savages, insofar as "savage" has any actual non-derogatory meaning. They were a people living in a low-tech (by modern standards) civilization. T

They weren't savages, insofar as "savage" has any actual non-derogatory meaning. They were a people living in a low-tech (by modern standards) civilization. They clearly did some super cool things, technology-wise, including some remarkable navigation. That doesn't make it a good idea to throw away modern agriculture and go back to just eating whatever happens to grow naturally and hoping for the best. 200k people used to live on the islands. 1.5 million do now.

eesmith 4y ago
I have a few issues with your statements: > the most amazing abundance the world has ever seen This abundance requires a lot of fossil fuels, which does not appear to be a long-term sustainable mechanism. How productive are modern methods if the amount of oil used is reduced by 95%? Modern methods, as applied to Maui, caused agriculture production to switch to pineapple and sugarcane, significantly decreased soil quality, and contributes to species extinction. This does not appear to a be long-term sustainable process. The economics requires cash to pay for the import of 85-90% of their food. The cash comes from tourism. The recent pandemic shows the fragility of the system, because when tourists don't come, locals don't get money. How will they pay for food? The method is being applied to land that modern agriculture deems "lifeless", so it is not replacing existing agriculture. > to throw away modern agriculture and go back to just eating whatever happens to grow naturally and hoping for the best. The article describes an artificial system with humans highly involved in the process. This is not simply "whatever happens to grow naturally". Or as the article puts it: "It isn’t just about looking back, but rather mixing ancient regenerative farming practices with modern tools and technologies to meet the climate and food challenges facing Hawaii in the 21st century." Quoting one of the farmers: “Our yields cannot match industrial farming but our return on investment is the healthy land and water we’ll leave for our kids … this isn’t just about bringing back the rains, it’s the right thing to do as Hawaiians.” How important is cheap pineapple and not-so-cheap sugar [1] to you to justify poor quality land and water in Hawaii? [1] U.S. trade barriers result in doubling the price of sugar in the U.S. compared to the rest of the world.
ok_dad 4y ago
> go back to just eating whatever happens to grow naturally and hoping for the best Uh, they specifically had technology and practiced agriculture in a specific way, not just randomly collecting shit and eating it. What century are you from that you think everyone but the modern human was just “hoping for the best”? Hawaiians were getting along really well with high quality of life until suddenly outsiders came in and utilized “modern methods” in everything, resulting in tons of damage to the environment.

eesmith 4y ago

I have a few issues with your statements: > the most amazing abundance the world has ever seen This abundance requires a lot of fossil fuels, which does not appear to be a long-term sustainable mechanism. How productive are modern methods if the amount of oil used is reduced by 95%? Modern methods, as applied to Maui, caused agriculture production to switch to pineapple and sugarcane, significantly decreased soil quality, and contributes to species extinction. This does not appear to a be long-term sustainable process. The economics requires cash to pay for the import of 85-90% of their food. The cash comes from tourism. The recent pandemic shows the fragility of the system, because when tourists don't come, locals don't get money. How will they pay for food? The method is being applied to land that modern agriculture deems "lifeless", so it is not replacing existing agriculture. > to throw away modern agriculture and go back to just eating whatever happens to grow naturally and hoping for the best. The article describes an artificial system with humans highly involved in the process. This is not simply "whatever happens to grow naturally". Or as the article puts it: "It isn’t just about looking back, but rather mixing ancient regenerative farming practices with modern tools and technologies to meet the climate and food challenges facing Hawaii in the 21st century." Quoting one of the farmers: “Our yields cannot match industrial farming but our return on investment is the healthy land and water we’ll leave for our kids … this isn’t just about bringing back the rains, it’s the right thing to do as Hawaiians.” How important is cheap pineapple and not-so-cheap sugar [1] to you to justify poor quality land and water in Hawaii? [1] U.S. trade barriers result in doubling the price of sugar in the U.S. compared to the rest of the world.

ok_dad 4y ago

> go back to just eating whatever happens to grow naturally and hoping for the best Uh, they specifically had technology and practiced agriculture in a specific way, not just randomly collecting shit and eating it. What century are you from that you think everyone but the modern human was just “hoping for the best”? Hawaiians were getting along really well with high quality of life until suddenly outsiders came in and utilized “modern methods” in everything, resulting in tons of damage to the environment.