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I appreciate this answer. I hadn't realized a lot of this, especially the first part: > The Bible teaches that humans are sinful beings not because of what the

I appreciate this answer. I hadn't realized a lot of this, especially the first part: > The Bible teaches that humans are sinful beings not because of what they do, but because sin is an immutable part of human nature. There's no such thing as an "innocent" baby where the doctrine of original sin is concerned - all humans deserve hell by default. So unless the baby is born, baptized and saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ (which can only happen through their consent and free will, you can't "save" an unborn baby as a loophole) it will burn in Hell for eternity like any other unsaved soul. As someone not born into or raised by a Christian family, I sometimes struggle to understand how deep some of these beliefs are. So is the idea that one does not receive unconditional love from God unless one first consents to believe in God? And babies don't have the ability to consent? Maybe this is too off topic for HN but I'm quite curious.

krapp 4y ago
I'm not a pastor or Biblical scholar, I just grew up around a lot of Southern Baptists and Pentecostals and know what a lot of them believe. In essence that the love of God is unconditional, but forgiveness is not, and it also can't be earned by being a good person or doing good things, it can only be asked for. Of course that said, there have been plenty of Christians who believe in infant baptism or a state of grace for infants and all sorts of things - Christianity isn't a monolith. But when it comes to the intersection of religion and pro-life politics in the US, the more hardline strains of faith seem to dominate.
- jimkleiber 4y ago
  > In essence that the love of God is unconditional, but forgiveness is not, and it also can't be earned by being a good person or doing good things, it can only be asked for. Ah, so do they believe that if and only if one goes through baptism, then they have asked for God's forgiveness and then will be forgiven? I seem a bit confused by that, does it mean that the love is unconditional only after the one specific condition is met? Or maybe it's that unconditional love and forgiveness are separate things? Also maybe you don't know and that's ok, too, I'm just grateful for you helping me reflect on this more.

krapp 4y ago

I'm not a pastor or Biblical scholar, I just grew up around a lot of Southern Baptists and Pentecostals and know what a lot of them believe. In essence that the love of God is unconditional, but forgiveness is not, and it also can't be earned by being a good person or doing good things, it can only be asked for. Of course that said, there have been plenty of Christians who believe in infant baptism or a state of grace for infants and all sorts of things - Christianity isn't a monolith. But when it comes to the intersection of religion and pro-life politics in the US, the more hardline strains of faith seem to dominate.

jimkleiber 4y ago
> In essence that the love of God is unconditional, but forgiveness is not, and it also can't be earned by being a good person or doing good things, it can only be asked for. Ah, so do they believe that if and only if one goes through baptism, then they have asked for God's forgiveness and then will be forgiven? I seem a bit confused by that, does it mean that the love is unconditional only after the one specific condition is met? Or maybe it's that unconditional love and forgiveness are separate things? Also maybe you don't know and that's ok, too, I'm just grateful for you helping me reflect on this more.