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That's a really good point but unfortunately its just a surface level argument. Same states that demonize abortions also cut health services for children and mo

That's a really good point but unfortunately its just a surface level argument. Same states that demonize abortions also cut health services for children and mothers. All states that had a trigger law to ban abortions also do not have paid family leave. So they only kinda sorta care about the child in the womb but not about the mother or the child when they are born. If folks are going to ban abortions they should at least expand child and mother care, in my opinion. On the other hand, pre-Roe, the maximum tax rate was 70%, with 25 different tax brackets. I'm guessing that folks that support today's decision are probably okay with the tax increases and big government that will follow. Put another way, the case several days ago that allows child school credit to be used for Catholic school ALSO allows the same credit to be used for the Church of Satan School of the Gifted. The unintended consequences of all the rulings during the past week are going to be an interesting things to observe.

forty 4y ago
Exactly, so much bullshit when the only goals are really to make sure poor people stay poor and that women don't work...
- bardworx 4y ago
  I believe the “real” reason is to disenfranchise voters and seal their majority.
gwd 4y ago
> Same states that demonize abortions also cut health services for children and mothers. All states that had a trigger law to ban abortions also do not have paid family leave. Suppose for the sake of argument that you're a person who thinks health services for children and paid family leave are important; but you also think that abortion is the moral equivalent of murder. You can vote for: * Team Blue, who will increase children's health services and advocate for paid family leave, but slaughter millions of innocent children [Remember, I'm not claiming this is true, I'm trying to put you in the mind of a hypothetical person who believes this way] * Team Red, who will decrease children's health services and family leave, but restrict the slaughter of innocent children. I mean, if that's what you actually believe, then it really has to be Team Red, doesn't it? I don't pretend to know what politicians think; it seems pretty likely that a lot of them are cynically using abortion as a ploy to get people to vote for policies that favor their rich donors. But I can tell you that an awful lot of people who actually vote are genuine in their opposition to it. If you want people to vote differently, you have to understand where the voters are coming from, not where their politicians are coming from.
- bardworx 4y ago
  That’s a really good point and thanks for sharing. Definitely food for thought with regards to this sensitive topic. Personally, I believe anti-abortion is a double edged sword that I don’t know how to traverse. I respect everyone’s right to choose but I also understand how politicizing the issue is favorable for politicians as they can yank at the heart strings and at the same time effect specific class of citizens more than others. And that last part bothers me. It’s not so much the belief but the use of that as a belief to disenfranchise communities who are most vulnerable. I don’t know how to reconcile that fact, internally.
- lupire 4y ago
  Team Blue has fewer abortions than Team Red, thanks to contraception. Team Red just has their abortions as safe for rich people while poor people use coat hangers. Team Red is only opposed to abortions for other people. "The Only Moral Abortion is My Abortion": https://joycearthur.com/abortion/the-only-moral-abortion-is-my-abortion/ https://joycearthur.com/abortion/the-only-moral-abortion-is-...
  - gwd 4y ago
    > Team Blue has fewer abortions than Team Red, thanks to contraception. ...and states run by Team Blue tend to have fewer abortions, in part because of easier availability of contraception, but also in part because people are less desperate and feel more able to cope with unplanned pregnancies. (And the country as a whole has fewer abortions after seasons where Team Blue is in control than Team Red.) Many pro-life people who saw what a danger Trump was made exactly this case to their peers, both in 2016 and 2020. Additionally, most Team Red people I talk to actually do believe in a social safety net; they just want to make sure it's not wasted on "lazy people". They don't have an accurate picture of exactly what it is that Team Blue and Team Red are both doing with the social safety net. (They don't even tend to have an accurate picture of what Team Blue and Team Red are doing in terms of abortion.) Rather than slagging these people as regressive hateful backwards bigoted hypocrites, it's better to engage with them: Take their preferences into account, make sure they're informed of the actual situation on the ground. (Again, I'm talking about the individual voters, not politicians, who may well be hateful backwards bigoted hypocrites.)
eric_cc 4y ago
> All states that had a trigger law to ban abortions also do not have paid family leave. So they only kinda sorta care about the child in the womb but not about the mother or the child when they are born. Or they’re more capitalist in their thinking and expect people to take care of themselves as opposed to leaving it up to the government. Who is right and who is wrong comes down to opinion. But I don’t believe it’s as simple as “the other side doesn’t care as much as we do”
- bardworx 4y ago
  That's a fair counter-point. If we had to create a model to test my hypothesis, what do you believe is the best way to go about it? My proposal is as follows: Take the GDP, per capita, per state and compare expansion/contraction of before Roe and after Roe. We can measure % change in the 10 years pre Roe to 10 years post Roe. The hypothesis is that states never cared about children and as such, post Roe, GDP expansion in states that had abortion abolished experienced a much higher GDP, per capita growth than before. Information can be sourced from St. Luis FED. If you have another idea, please let me know. I'm personally curious about this and would like to explore so feel free to pick apart my post as it will just render a more thought out experiment. Thanks. edit: If someone is a data scientist that can comment on what is the correct methodology to take or what pitfalls to consider, I would highly appreciate it.
jl6 4y ago
Another part of the pro-life/conservative mindset is that positive rights (freedom to) and negative rights (freedom from) tend to be treated very differently, leading to no inherent contradiction between believing in the unborn child’s right to not be killed, and believing that same child has no right to free care.
- bardworx 4y ago
  I don’t inherently believe that to be true for most Red voters. I do believe that is the inherit belief of most Red politicians and oligarchs.

forty 4y ago

Exactly, so much bullshit when the only goals are really to make sure poor people stay poor and that women don't work...

bardworx 4y ago
I believe the “real” reason is to disenfranchise voters and seal their majority.

gwd 4y ago

> Same states that demonize abortions also cut health services for children and mothers. All states that had a trigger law to ban abortions also do not have paid family leave. Suppose for the sake of argument that you're a person who thinks health services for children and paid family leave are important; but you also think that abortion is the moral equivalent of murder. You can vote for: * Team Blue, who will increase children's health services and advocate for paid family leave, but slaughter millions of innocent children [Remember, I'm not claiming this is true, I'm trying to put you in the mind of a hypothetical person who believes this way] * Team Red, who will decrease children's health services and family leave, but restrict the slaughter of innocent children. I mean, if that's what you actually believe, then it really has to be Team Red, doesn't it? I don't pretend to know what politicians think; it seems pretty likely that a lot of them are cynically using abortion as a ploy to get people to vote for policies that favor their rich donors. But I can tell you that an awful lot of people who actually vote are genuine in their opposition to it. If you want people to vote differently, you have to understand where the voters are coming from, not where their politicians are coming from.

bardworx 4y ago
That’s a really good point and thanks for sharing. Definitely food for thought with regards to this sensitive topic. Personally, I believe anti-abortion is a double edged sword that I don’t know how to traverse. I respect everyone’s right to choose but I also understand how politicizing the issue is favorable for politicians as they can yank at the heart strings and at the same time effect specific class of citizens more than others. And that last part bothers me. It’s not so much the belief but the use of that as a belief to disenfranchise communities who are most vulnerable. I don’t know how to reconcile that fact, internally.
lupire 4y ago
Team Blue has fewer abortions than Team Red, thanks to contraception. Team Red just has their abortions as safe for rich people while poor people use coat hangers. Team Red is only opposed to abortions for other people. "The Only Moral Abortion is My Abortion": https://joycearthur.com/abortion/the-only-moral-abortion-is-my-abortion/ https://joycearthur.com/abortion/the-only-moral-abortion-is-...
- gwd 4y ago
  > Team Blue has fewer abortions than Team Red, thanks to contraception. ...and states run by Team Blue tend to have fewer abortions, in part because of easier availability of contraception, but also in part because people are less desperate and feel more able to cope with unplanned pregnancies. (And the country as a whole has fewer abortions after seasons where Team Blue is in control than Team Red.) Many pro-life people who saw what a danger Trump was made exactly this case to their peers, both in 2016 and 2020. Additionally, most Team Red people I talk to actually do believe in a social safety net; they just want to make sure it's not wasted on "lazy people". They don't have an accurate picture of exactly what it is that Team Blue and Team Red are both doing with the social safety net. (They don't even tend to have an accurate picture of what Team Blue and Team Red are doing in terms of abortion.) Rather than slagging these people as regressive hateful backwards bigoted hypocrites, it's better to engage with them: Take their preferences into account, make sure they're informed of the actual situation on the ground. (Again, I'm talking about the individual voters, not politicians, who may well be hateful backwards bigoted hypocrites.)

eric_cc 4y ago

> All states that had a trigger law to ban abortions also do not have paid family leave. So they only kinda sorta care about the child in the womb but not about the mother or the child when they are born. Or they’re more capitalist in their thinking and expect people to take care of themselves as opposed to leaving it up to the government. Who is right and who is wrong comes down to opinion. But I don’t believe it’s as simple as “the other side doesn’t care as much as we do”

bardworx 4y ago
That's a fair counter-point. If we had to create a model to test my hypothesis, what do you believe is the best way to go about it? My proposal is as follows: Take the GDP, per capita, per state and compare expansion/contraction of before Roe and after Roe. We can measure % change in the 10 years pre Roe to 10 years post Roe. The hypothesis is that states never cared about children and as such, post Roe, GDP expansion in states that had abortion abolished experienced a much higher GDP, per capita growth than before. Information can be sourced from St. Luis FED. If you have another idea, please let me know. I'm personally curious about this and would like to explore so feel free to pick apart my post as it will just render a more thought out experiment. Thanks. edit: If someone is a data scientist that can comment on what is the correct methodology to take or what pitfalls to consider, I would highly appreciate it.

jl6 4y ago

Another part of the pro-life/conservative mindset is that positive rights (freedom to) and negative rights (freedom from) tend to be treated very differently, leading to no inherent contradiction between believing in the unborn child’s right to not be killed, and believing that same child has no right to free care.

bardworx 4y ago
I don’t inherently believe that to be true for most Red voters. I do believe that is the inherit belief of most Red politicians and oligarchs.