4 ms·

It seems like if they want to emphasize personal responsibility, they could stop trying to influence laws that prevent people from getting abortions or using co

It seems like if they want to emphasize personal responsibility, they could stop trying to influence laws that prevent people from getting abortions or using contraception.

cato_the_elder 4y ago
> stop trying to influence laws that prevent people from getting abortions I'm not sure if I follow. That seems to me like having more empathy with irresponsible people, possibly at the cost of innocent fetuses.
- mikkergp 4y ago
  While I won't try to argue with you because abortion is the thing we won't see eye to eye on, what bout the 'or' on contraception, or do you think that responsible people only think that sex is for making babies? On another thought, you think the best thing to do is give people you judge as irresponsible a child? Also, doesn’t original sin mean the fetus not innocent? Is innocence really the important measure? Because lots of things are innocent we don’t care about.
  - cato_the_elder 4y ago
    > what bout the 'or' on contraception I don't have any particular problems with contraception. Some right-wingers do, they should speak for themselves. (I'm also not against early-stage abortions) > On another thought, you think the best thing to do is give people you judge as irresponsible a child? It's not ideal, it's just better than normalizing taking innocent lives. Also, if someone really thinks they can't be a good parent, putting up the baby for adoption is always an option. > Also, doesn’t original sin mean the fetus not innocent?(which of course doesn't really apply since it's not a person) I'm not religious, so I don't really think about the issue in terms of sins in the religious sense.
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- CuriouslyC 4y ago
  Saying "innocent fetus" is like calling a horse with a top hat a gentleman.
  - cato_the_elder 4y ago
    Yeah, because we all know if you wait a little bit, the horse will develop into a fully-fledged human beings.
_-david-_ 4y ago
That is kind of a weird argument and I assume you don't understand the antiabortion position. People who are opposed to abortion think it is murder. If somebody supports personal responsibility that doesn't mean they think we shouldn't have murder laws. You may disagree with the idea it is murder, but if it is in fact murder than it is completely consistent to support laws against it.
- trasz 4y ago
  >People who are opposed to abortion think it is murder. And people who are opposed to physics believe Earth is flat. Both views are the same in terms of rationality.
  - _-david-_ 4y ago
    Biologically life begins at conception [1] [2]. A human fetus has been conceived. Therefore a human fetus is a human life. Unjustly and deliberately killing a human is murder. You may disagree with some of the premises but they follow one another and have decent reasons to believe them. That is hardly irrational. Something to keep in mind. If you want to actually convince somebody in the future, saying their views are as irrational as believing the Earth is flat isn't the best way. [1] https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.html https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.ht... [2] https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes.html https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes.htm...
    - CuriouslyC 4y ago
      How do you even define "life" biologically? Two "living" things combine to form a fetus, and just a few months down the line none of the physical matter of those living things still comprises the growing fetus. The thing that is being terminated isn't a human, it's the potential of a human, which is also the thing that is flushed down the toilet when a used condom is disposed of. Forced birthers are crazy, full stop. A fertilized egg is not a human any more than a sperm is a human.

It seems like if they want to emphasize personal responsibility, they could stop trying to influence laws that prevent people from getting abortions or using contraception.

cato_the_elder 4y ago

> stop trying to influence laws that prevent people from getting abortions I'm not sure if I follow. That seems to me like having more empathy with irresponsible people, possibly at the cost of innocent fetuses.

mikkergp 4y ago
While I won't try to argue with you because abortion is the thing we won't see eye to eye on, what bout the 'or' on contraception, or do you think that responsible people only think that sex is for making babies? On another thought, you think the best thing to do is give people you judge as irresponsible a child? Also, doesn’t original sin mean the fetus not innocent? Is innocence really the important measure? Because lots of things are innocent we don’t care about.
- cato_the_elder 4y ago
  > what bout the 'or' on contraception I don't have any particular problems with contraception. Some right-wingers do, they should speak for themselves. (I'm also not against early-stage abortions) > On another thought, you think the best thing to do is give people you judge as irresponsible a child? It's not ideal, it's just better than normalizing taking innocent lives. Also, if someone really thinks they can't be a good parent, putting up the baby for adoption is always an option. > Also, doesn’t original sin mean the fetus not innocent?(which of course doesn't really apply since it's not a person) I'm not religious, so I don't really think about the issue in terms of sins in the religious sense.
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CuriouslyC 4y ago
Saying "innocent fetus" is like calling a horse with a top hat a gentleman.
- cato_the_elder 4y ago
  Yeah, because we all know if you wait a little bit, the horse will develop into a fully-fledged human beings.

_-david-_ 4y ago

That is kind of a weird argument and I assume you don't understand the antiabortion position. People who are opposed to abortion think it is murder. If somebody supports personal responsibility that doesn't mean they think we shouldn't have murder laws. You may disagree with the idea it is murder, but if it is in fact murder than it is completely consistent to support laws against it.

trasz 4y ago
>People who are opposed to abortion think it is murder. And people who are opposed to physics believe Earth is flat. Both views are the same in terms of rationality.
- _-david-_ 4y ago
  Biologically life begins at conception [1] [2]. A human fetus has been conceived. Therefore a human fetus is a human life. Unjustly and deliberately killing a human is murder. You may disagree with some of the premises but they follow one another and have decent reasons to believe them. That is hardly irrational. Something to keep in mind. If you want to actually convince somebody in the future, saying their views are as irrational as believing the Earth is flat isn't the best way. [1] https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.html https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.ht... [2] https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes.html https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes.htm...
  - CuriouslyC 4y ago
    How do you even define "life" biologically? Two "living" things combine to form a fetus, and just a few months down the line none of the physical matter of those living things still comprises the growing fetus. The thing that is being terminated isn't a human, it's the potential of a human, which is also the thing that is flushed down the toilet when a used condom is disposed of. Forced birthers are crazy, full stop. A fertilized egg is not a human any more than a sperm is a human.