4 ms·

Funny you suggest a track similar to law/med school. In those progressions graduates can expect to make well into the six figures. If we doubled teachers' pay,

Funny you suggest a track similar to law/med school. In those progressions graduates can expect to make well into the six figures. If we doubled teachers' pay, lightened their workload, and most importantly did not require teachers to answer so stringently to administrators (and voters and homebuyers) who mainly care about test scores, I would agree this is a good idea. I have a friend who's a teacher, who works hard, and who is picking up boring temp work for $10/hour almost every weekend so she can get out of town in December. That's just sad to me. I have heard from people who know that turnover in the classroom is already high, even among people who got a 1 year intensive master's degree in teaching. In principle, I'd like to set the bar higher as you suggest, but the first priority is to make teaching an attractive profession.

yummyfajitas 15y ago
How light a workload do teachers need? As it stands now, full time teachers [1] work only 38.5 hours/week (on average). http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2008/03/art4full.pdf http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2008/03/art4full.pdf I'm not sure how increasing pay, further reducing work hours, and completely eliminating accountability will do anything other than buy teacher's loyalties in an election year. Incidentally, there is also little evidence that postgraduate degrees in education improve student outcomes. They increase teacher pay (according to union-negotiated pay scales), but don't help the students. [1] Those who work at least 35 hours/week.
- impendia 15y ago
  I certainly don't propose completely eliminating accountability. I think we need to seriously rethink how and to whom teachers are accountable, and how they are evaluated.
- tdfx 15y ago
  I wasn't implying that another 2-3 years of a graduate education degree would solve the problem at hand. Sorry I wasn't clear on that. My intended assertion is that the curriculum for an education degree should be the MOST challenging available, not a fallback for people who don't want to be bothered learning math and science.
  - esrauch 15y ago
    You really think we need intelligent people to explain addition to 6 year olds and tell them not to pick their noses?
- king_jester 15y ago
  Could you explain your source for the statistic you used on an avg. 38.5 hour work week for teachers? The only relevant information I found in the linked PDF was chart 2, which has the following footnote: NOTE: The calculations of hours worked are based on data collected about how survey respondents spent “yesterday.” Thus, average weekly work hours are an extrapolation based on the activity for 1 day. That footnote seems to imply that the avg. hours worked per week calculation may not be very accurate. The linked PDF also doesn't mention if the hours reported are the contracted hours for the teacher or the total hours spent working including work at home and outside of school hours.
  - yummyfajitas 15y ago
    I got it by eyeballing Table 10 to get about 5.5 hours worked/day, multiplied by 7. Assuming the sample is statistically representative, the hours/week calculation is accurate. Across the population as a whole, it is a mathematical identity that: Sum(Sum(hours(day, teacher), all teachers), days in week) == Sum(Sum(hours(day, teacher), days in week), all teachers) In a statistical sample, the equality will be approximate due to sampling error, and it's worthy of a note. Maybe the ATUS did a bad job, but in general I assume they do an adequate job absent evidence they did not. Do you have better data?
  - argv_empty 15y ago
    That footnote seems to imply that the avg. hours worked per week calculation may not be very accurate. The linked PDF also doesn't mention if the hours reported are the contracted hours for the teacher or the total hours spent working including work at home and outside of school hours. The ATUS asks about work done for pay (or for free if it's for a family-owned business), not work you do beyond the hours you actually get paid for.
    - yummyfajitas 15y ago
      The ATUS asks about work done for pay (or for free if it's for a family-owned business), not work you do beyond the hours you actually get paid for. False. http://www.bls.gov/news.release/atus.tn.htm http://www.bls.gov/news.release/atus.tn.htm [edit: can't reply to your reply, but: "This category includes time spent working, doing activities as part of one’s job, engaging in income-generating activities (not as part of one’s job), and job search activities. "Working" includes hours spent doing the specific tasks required of one’s main or other job, regardless of location or time of day. "Work-related activities" include activities that are not obviously work but are done as part of one’s job, such as having a business lunch or playing golf with clients." ]

yummyfajitas 15y ago

How light a workload do teachers need? As it stands now, full time teachers [1] work only 38.5 hours/week (on average). http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2008/03/art4full.pdf http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2008/03/art4full.pdf I'm not sure how increasing pay, further reducing work hours, and completely eliminating accountability will do anything other than buy teacher's loyalties in an election year. Incidentally, there is also little evidence that postgraduate degrees in education improve student outcomes. They increase teacher pay (according to union-negotiated pay scales), but don't help the students. [1] Those who work at least 35 hours/week.

impendia 15y ago
I certainly don't propose completely eliminating accountability. I think we need to seriously rethink how and to whom teachers are accountable, and how they are evaluated.
tdfx 15y ago
I wasn't implying that another 2-3 years of a graduate education degree would solve the problem at hand. Sorry I wasn't clear on that. My intended assertion is that the curriculum for an education degree should be the MOST challenging available, not a fallback for people who don't want to be bothered learning math and science.
- esrauch 15y ago
  You really think we need intelligent people to explain addition to 6 year olds and tell them not to pick their noses?
king_jester 15y ago
Could you explain your source for the statistic you used on an avg. 38.5 hour work week for teachers? The only relevant information I found in the linked PDF was chart 2, which has the following footnote: NOTE: The calculations of hours worked are based on data collected about how survey respondents spent “yesterday.” Thus, average weekly work hours are an extrapolation based on the activity for 1 day. That footnote seems to imply that the avg. hours worked per week calculation may not be very accurate. The linked PDF also doesn't mention if the hours reported are the contracted hours for the teacher or the total hours spent working including work at home and outside of school hours.
- yummyfajitas 15y ago
  I got it by eyeballing Table 10 to get about 5.5 hours worked/day, multiplied by 7. Assuming the sample is statistically representative, the hours/week calculation is accurate. Across the population as a whole, it is a mathematical identity that: Sum(Sum(hours(day, teacher), all teachers), days in week) == Sum(Sum(hours(day, teacher), days in week), all teachers) In a statistical sample, the equality will be approximate due to sampling error, and it's worthy of a note. Maybe the ATUS did a bad job, but in general I assume they do an adequate job absent evidence they did not. Do you have better data?
- argv_empty 15y ago
  That footnote seems to imply that the avg. hours worked per week calculation may not be very accurate. The linked PDF also doesn't mention if the hours reported are the contracted hours for the teacher or the total hours spent working including work at home and outside of school hours. The ATUS asks about work done for pay (or for free if it's for a family-owned business), not work you do beyond the hours you actually get paid for.
  - yummyfajitas 15y ago
    The ATUS asks about work done for pay (or for free if it's for a family-owned business), not work you do beyond the hours you actually get paid for. False. http://www.bls.gov/news.release/atus.tn.htm http://www.bls.gov/news.release/atus.tn.htm [edit: can't reply to your reply, but: "This category includes time spent working, doing activities as part of one’s job, engaging in income-generating activities (not as part of one’s job), and job search activities. "Working" includes hours spent doing the specific tasks required of one’s main or other job, regardless of location or time of day. "Work-related activities" include activities that are not obviously work but are done as part of one’s job, such as having a business lunch or playing golf with clients." ]