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> I struggle to believe that a single pro-lifer would say this is the reason behind their beliefs. Of course they wouldn't say it out loud: that would be givi

> I struggle to believe that a single pro-lifer would say this is the reason behind their beliefs. Of course they wouldn't say it out loud: that would be giving the game away. Instead, judge them by their actions. The same crowd that wants to prevent abortions also wants to prohibit contraception, allow unrestricted gun ownership, and cut back on any social programs that support families. These actions are consistent with a puritanical, anti-sex society; they are not consistent with a "commitment to life."

camhart 4y ago
So... you get to decide what I believe and why I believe it? Then you convince yourself that you're beliefs about what I believe are more accurate than what I attest them to be? Stop listening to what prochoicers say prolifers believe, and start actually listening to what the prolifers are saying. I (and most prolifers I know) don't have some secret agenda.
- hackyhacky 4y ago
  Yes, I get to judge your integrity based on your actions. Obviously. When your actions are evil, I don't care what you say. When the cop beats you bloody while declaring that it's "For your own protection," you are justified in questioning his motives. When the right claims to care about "life," but their actions totally contradict the stated goal, I get to declare them at best hypocrites but more likely just fascists.
philsnow 4y ago
> The same crowd that wants to prevent abortions also wants to prohibit contraception, allow unrestricted gun ownership, and cut back on any social programs that support families. I see this kind of thought process all the time: when some people don't get traction with their arguments on a particular issue, they ascribe other beliefs to their opponent and call those into question. This is both ad hominem and whataboutism, and it doesn't win over anybody's heart or mind, it just "others" the opponent, further entrenching tribalism. The "crowd" is diverse and contains multitudes. If you want to change minds, engage with the arguments, not with the arguers.
- hackyhacky 4y ago
  The argument that the right wants to prohibit contraception is not some specious straw-man that I made up: it is stated plainly in Justice Thomas's opinion. And it's a position that I believe is supported by a large portion of the population in states where abortion is now illegal. We see more and more antagonism against gays and trans people. Moreover, because the Dobbs decision dismantled the right to privacy, it has cleared the way to destroy the legal foundation on which other important decisions are based, such a gay marriage. If you don't want to be judged as a tribe, you need to take a stand. If you support contraception and gay marriage, then support them. Right now, though, the right is supporting more and more extreme ideologues.

camhart 4y ago

So... you get to decide what I believe and why I believe it? Then you convince yourself that you're beliefs about what I believe are more accurate than what I attest them to be? Stop listening to what prochoicers say prolifers believe, and start actually listening to what the prolifers are saying. I (and most prolifers I know) don't have some secret agenda.

hackyhacky 4y ago
Yes, I get to judge your integrity based on your actions. Obviously. When your actions are evil, I don't care what you say. When the cop beats you bloody while declaring that it's "For your own protection," you are justified in questioning his motives. When the right claims to care about "life," but their actions totally contradict the stated goal, I get to declare them at best hypocrites but more likely just fascists.

philsnow 4y ago

> The same crowd that wants to prevent abortions also wants to prohibit contraception, allow unrestricted gun ownership, and cut back on any social programs that support families. I see this kind of thought process all the time: when some people don't get traction with their arguments on a particular issue, they ascribe other beliefs to their opponent and call those into question. This is both ad hominem and whataboutism, and it doesn't win over anybody's heart or mind, it just "others" the opponent, further entrenching tribalism. The "crowd" is diverse and contains multitudes. If you want to change minds, engage with the arguments, not with the arguers.

hackyhacky 4y ago
The argument that the right wants to prohibit contraception is not some specious straw-man that I made up: it is stated plainly in Justice Thomas's opinion. And it's a position that I believe is supported by a large portion of the population in states where abortion is now illegal. We see more and more antagonism against gays and trans people. Moreover, because the Dobbs decision dismantled the right to privacy, it has cleared the way to destroy the legal foundation on which other important decisions are based, such a gay marriage. If you don't want to be judged as a tribe, you need to take a stand. If you support contraception and gay marriage, then support them. Right now, though, the right is supporting more and more extreme ideologues.