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I haven’t been fixated on this by any means but I remember reading an article months back that looked at the timeline and locations of the early cases and compa

I haven’t been fixated on this by any means but I remember reading an article months back that looked at the timeline and locations of the early cases and compared them against the locations of the market and the research facility. I came away thinking that the animal market hypothesis seemed much more likely than the lab leak.

mikeyouse 4y ago
Yep - there are a ton of such points of evidence. The strict "lab leak" proponents have essentially made an unfalsifiable hypothesis akin to the intelligent design people's "God of the Gaps" where each time there's new research that disproves a core assumption, that just means the conspiracy goes deeper. I linked it above, but aside from the fact that every other pandemic we've seen came about the same way, there's a ton of specific evidence from this pandemic: https://protagonistfuture.substack.com/p/natures-neglected-gof-laboratory?s=w https://protagonistfuture.substack.com/p/natures-neglected-g... Including the timeline/locations of the earliest cases: https://zenodo.org/record/6299600#.YjSWqDUxmUk https://zenodo.org/record/6299600#.YjSWqDUxmUk One thing the lab leak crew haven't been able to answer is how there could possibly be two different lineages at the market -- which you'd 100% expect from multiple spillover but is essentially impossible if your working theory is that an infected lab worker brought it to the market.
- secondcoming 4y ago
  Brought what to the market? Themselves or animals from a lab?
  - mikeyouse 4y ago
    > Infected worker To be honest, I hadn't even encountered the idea that lab employees were what, selling infected animals at the market? Is this a real thing people are arguing? Who even comes up with this stuff.
    - coupdejarnac 4y ago
      That's been my pet hypothesis for a few years, but I wouldn't argue for it. I just base it on some of the disgusting, unethical things I saw while living in China.
      - kaitaincps 4y ago
        Certainly there is a culture within China of taking dangerous short cuts to save money. https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/26/opinion/beware-of-chinas-safety-record.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/26/opinion/beware-of-chinas-...
    - secondcoming 4y ago
      It doesn't necessarily need to be a lab employee, it could be someone reponsible for disposing of dead animals choosing to make a quick buck
- kaitaincps 4y ago
  Hmm, but have there been any other pandemics that started close to a lab researching the kind of pathogen involved in the pandemic? Funny you should ask. There was this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1977_Russian_flu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1977_Russian_flu By “came about the same way”, I’m assuming you mean “by zoonotic transfer”. But the 1977 Russian flu pandemic is now widely believed to have been a lab leak, or a vaccine trial that went wrong. So your claim is false.
throwawaymaths 4y ago
There is also allegedly a Wuhan CDC facility meters away from the market where disposal of lab animals happened (I cannot confirm this myself), so if that's true, that's certainly another possibility.

mikeyouse 4y ago

Yep - there are a ton of such points of evidence. The strict "lab leak" proponents have essentially made an unfalsifiable hypothesis akin to the intelligent design people's "God of the Gaps" where each time there's new research that disproves a core assumption, that just means the conspiracy goes deeper. I linked it above, but aside from the fact that every other pandemic we've seen came about the same way, there's a ton of specific evidence from this pandemic: https://protagonistfuture.substack.com/p/natures-neglected-gof-laboratory?s=w https://protagonistfuture.substack.com/p/natures-neglected-g... Including the timeline/locations of the earliest cases: https://zenodo.org/record/6299600#.YjSWqDUxmUk https://zenodo.org/record/6299600#.YjSWqDUxmUk One thing the lab leak crew haven't been able to answer is how there could possibly be two different lineages at the market -- which you'd 100% expect from multiple spillover but is essentially impossible if your working theory is that an infected lab worker brought it to the market.

secondcoming 4y ago
Brought what to the market? Themselves or animals from a lab?
- mikeyouse 4y ago
  > Infected worker To be honest, I hadn't even encountered the idea that lab employees were what, selling infected animals at the market? Is this a real thing people are arguing? Who even comes up with this stuff.
  - coupdejarnac 4y ago
    That's been my pet hypothesis for a few years, but I wouldn't argue for it. I just base it on some of the disgusting, unethical things I saw while living in China.
    - kaitaincps 4y ago
      Certainly there is a culture within China of taking dangerous short cuts to save money. https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/26/opinion/beware-of-chinas-safety-record.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/26/opinion/beware-of-chinas-...
  - secondcoming 4y ago
    It doesn't necessarily need to be a lab employee, it could be someone reponsible for disposing of dead animals choosing to make a quick buck
kaitaincps 4y ago
Hmm, but have there been any other pandemics that started close to a lab researching the kind of pathogen involved in the pandemic? Funny you should ask. There was this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1977_Russian_flu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1977_Russian_flu By “came about the same way”, I’m assuming you mean “by zoonotic transfer”. But the 1977 Russian flu pandemic is now widely believed to have been a lab leak, or a vaccine trial that went wrong. So your claim is false.

throwawaymaths 4y ago

There is also allegedly a Wuhan CDC facility meters away from the market where disposal of lab animals happened (I cannot confirm this myself), so if that's true, that's certainly another possibility.