4 ms·

The mother's choice to have sex creates the organism in the first place. That adds complexity to the topic not addressed in your argument.

hackyhacky 4y ago
Why is the mother's choice to have sex relevant? If you believe that abortion is murder, how the child came to be is irrelevant. The only way that the mother's conscious choice to have sex factor's into the equation is if the intent of abortion laws is not to protect children, but rather to punish women who choose to have sex.
wonnage 4y ago
Many of the abortion bans going into effect soon/now have no exception for rape
- camhart 4y ago
  Woman's choice is removed in circumstances of rape and I agree that that very much changes things. Rape accounts for less than 0.5% of abortions though, so while very important to consider, it'd be incorrect to assume that all abortions are due to rape. https://abort73.com/abortion_facts/us_abortion_statistics/ https://abort73.com/abortion_facts/us_abortion_statistics/
  - scarmig 4y ago
    Banning abortion except in the cases of rape would, however, result in many fewer abortion providers and make it inaccessible for many victims of rape. There's also implementation difficulties: do you need some kind of certificate from the legal system saying you were raped (way too restrictive), or is it just a matter of self attestation (for pro-lifers, likely a big enough hole to make it meaningless)?
  - verall 4y ago
    Ah yes, a website like that wouldn't cherry-pick statistics, would they? Considering it is literally an anti-abortion website?
- klipt 4y ago
  "What's best for the child" is often the argument used there - since the child did not commit the rape, the argument goes, it shouldn't be punished for it. Notably the same argument has been used to set the precedent that male rape victims are also compelled to pay child support to their rapists: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermesmann_v._Seyer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermesmann_v._Seyer
  - lostmsu 4y ago
    The case you linked does not support your argument. There the alimony decision was based on the rape victim giving consent from the standpoint of the civil laws which also govern parental relationships. That did not matter for criminal law because the victim was underage. Not that I agree with the court here, but it is completely different from what you described.
    - klipt 4y ago
      That's part of the logic (basically overriding the definition of statutory rape to be "not rape" if the underage child enjoyed it) But there are a bunch of similar decisions here: https://scholarship.law.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3201&context=penn_law_review https://scholarship.law.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?articl... And the common theme is just because the parent is raped, doesn't override the rights of the child. It's easy to see how that logic would be extended from child support to abortion.
deleted 4y ago
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AlexandrB 4y ago
So states that ban abortion are also pushing for easy access to contraceptives, right? That would be logically and morally consistent, no? Unless, perhaps, the motive for such laws is unrelated to the welfare of the humans (child and mother, both) involved.

hackyhacky 4y ago

Why is the mother's choice to have sex relevant? If you believe that abortion is murder, how the child came to be is irrelevant. The only way that the mother's conscious choice to have sex factor's into the equation is if the intent of abortion laws is not to protect children, but rather to punish women who choose to have sex.

wonnage 4y ago

Many of the abortion bans going into effect soon/now have no exception for rape

camhart 4y ago
Woman's choice is removed in circumstances of rape and I agree that that very much changes things. Rape accounts for less than 0.5% of abortions though, so while very important to consider, it'd be incorrect to assume that all abortions are due to rape. https://abort73.com/abortion_facts/us_abortion_statistics/ https://abort73.com/abortion_facts/us_abortion_statistics/
- scarmig 4y ago
  Banning abortion except in the cases of rape would, however, result in many fewer abortion providers and make it inaccessible for many victims of rape. There's also implementation difficulties: do you need some kind of certificate from the legal system saying you were raped (way too restrictive), or is it just a matter of self attestation (for pro-lifers, likely a big enough hole to make it meaningless)?
- verall 4y ago
  Ah yes, a website like that wouldn't cherry-pick statistics, would they? Considering it is literally an anti-abortion website?
klipt 4y ago
"What's best for the child" is often the argument used there - since the child did not commit the rape, the argument goes, it shouldn't be punished for it. Notably the same argument has been used to set the precedent that male rape victims are also compelled to pay child support to their rapists: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermesmann_v._Seyer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermesmann_v._Seyer
- lostmsu 4y ago
  The case you linked does not support your argument. There the alimony decision was based on the rape victim giving consent from the standpoint of the civil laws which also govern parental relationships. That did not matter for criminal law because the victim was underage. Not that I agree with the court here, but it is completely different from what you described.
  - klipt 4y ago
    That's part of the logic (basically overriding the definition of statutory rape to be "not rape" if the underage child enjoyed it) But there are a bunch of similar decisions here: https://scholarship.law.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3201&context=penn_law_review https://scholarship.law.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?articl... And the common theme is just because the parent is raped, doesn't override the rights of the child. It's easy to see how that logic would be extended from child support to abortion.

deleted 4y ago

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AlexandrB 4y ago

So states that ban abortion are also pushing for easy access to contraceptives, right? That would be logically and morally consistent, no? Unless, perhaps, the motive for such laws is unrelated to the welfare of the humans (child and mother, both) involved.