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I think the pro life crowd sees a significant difference between a fetus/baby/whatever and a random person. Probably something like, you are responsible for th

I think the pro life crowd sees a significant difference between a fetus/baby/whatever and a random person. Probably something like, you are responsible for the creating of the fetus/baby/whatever so you have more of an obligation to it than you do to other people.

LadyCailin 4y ago
If that were really the argument, it would look entirely different, as things like actual sex education, easily obtainable birth control, etc, would all be uncontentious. However, those are also very much subject to debate by the “pro life” crowd.
- hackyhacky 4y ago
  - philsnow 4y ago
    This may be the case for some but the Catholic worldview is both pro-life and extremely sex-positive, in the appropriate context. If you're talking about not just "women who have sex" but "~women~ people who have sex without regard for the children whom they may conceive", then yeah I'm against that kind of sex.
    - AlexandrB 4y ago
      The Catholic Church opposes the use of condoms[1]. Even in areas of the world where AIDS is rampant. They are not sex-positive, they are procreation-positive. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_HIV/AIDS https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_HIV/AIDS Edit: I suppose the Catholic Church is sex-positive when it comes to their clergy and underage parishioners. Disclaimer: I went to Catholic school for 11 years.
      - dragonwriter 4y ago
        > Catholics oppose the use of condoms Not really. Catholic doctrine might, American Catholics, especially, do not: https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2016/09/28/poll-finds-many-us-catholics-breaking-church-over-contraception-abortion-and-lgbt https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2016/09/28/poll-finds-... > Even in areas of the world where AIDS is rampant. https://www.cnn.com/2016/02/18/health/zika-pope-francis-contraceptives/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2016/02/18/health/zika-pope-francis-cont... (Benedict XVI made somewhat similar comments in 2010 regarding AIDS in Africa.)
        philsnow 4y ago
        > Catholic doctrine might, American Catholics, especially, do not This is unfortunately true (but unsurprisingly so, especially these days). That doesn't mean that they're somehow right; they don't speak for the Church.
      - philsnow 4y ago
        > The Catholic Church opposes the use of condoms[1]. Even in areas of the world where AIDS is rampant. Correct. > They are not sex-positive, they are procreation-positive. They are both. "Sex-positive" doesn't mean "anything goes". > I suppose the Catholic Church is sex-positive when it comes to their clergy and underage parishioners. No, the Church is harshly critical of this kind of thing. The fact that individual offenders have been shuffled around for decades is to our shame and to the shame of their bishops, but nonetheless the Church is not "for" this kind of thing in any way. > I went to Catholic school for 11 years. At least in America, I'd say the majority of Catholic schools are only nominally Catholic.
        AlexandrB 4y ago
        > No, the Church is harshly critical of this kind of thing. The fact that individual offenders have been shuffled around for decades is to our shame and to the shame of their bishops, but nonetheless the Church is not "for" this kind of thing in any way. I prefer to judge the church on its actions, not on its words. The bishops/cardinals in question got lofty appointments as their "punishment"[1]. [1] https://theconversation.com/the-catholic-churchs-grim-history-of-ignoring-priestly-pedophilia-and-silencing-would-be-whistleblowers-102387 https://theconversation.com/the-catholic-churchs-grim-histor... > Cardinal Law was neither indicted nor arrested. Instead, Pope John Paul II transferred Law to run one of the Vatican’s most cherished properties, the Basilica of Saint Mary, essentially rewarding Law for his deft cover-up of the abuses in Boston.
    - hackyhacky 4y ago
    - hackyhacky 4y ago
      > If you're talking about not just "women who have sex" but "~women~ people who have sex without regard for the children whom they may conceive", then yeah I'm against that kind of sex. The best way to ensure that children are treated with appropriate regard is to ensure that fewer unwanted children are born.
- wilsonnb3 4y ago
  I am not sure how the logic I laid out would lead people to support sex education or easily obtainable birth control. It is mostly a personal responsibility thing, as I understand it. You are responsible for creating the baby so you must give up some of your rights like bodily autonomy. Birth control and sex education are not really related to that at all as far as I can tell.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - nobody9999 4y ago
    >It is mostly a personal responsibility thing, as I understand it. You are responsible for creating the baby so you must give up some of your rights like bodily autonomy. If that's what you believe, then don't terminate your pregnancy. As far as anyone else is concerned, it's none of your concern.
    - wilsonnb3 4y ago
      > If that's what you believe, then don't terminate your pregnancy. As far as anyone else is concerned, it's none of your concern. I mean, I personally agree with you. However, there are very few true libertarians in our society and almost everyone has views that they wish to impose on other people. The pro lifers are not different than anyone else in this regard.
      - nobody9999 4y ago
        >almost everyone has views that they wish to impose on other people. And more's the pity.
- dionidium 4y ago
  The fact that "pro life" is the term for, "against abortion," but can also literally be interpreted to mean, "supports social programs for people who are alive" is childish word games. This isn't a real argument. It doesn't advance any point. It doesn't even logically make sense. It's just playing on the inherent ambiguity of natural language in service of a cheap non sequitur.
slg 4y ago
Which is why there is often an extra focus on situations of rape and incest when little to no active choice has been made to create life.
- Fatnino 4y ago
  Consentual sex happens, leading to accidental pregnancy. Now the girl's family is incentivised to claim rape so she can get an abortion.
  - slg 4y ago
    To be clear, I agree with you. These exceptions are not good enough and can create perverse incentives like you suggest. I was simply citing the lack of these exceptions being universal as evidence that a large percentage of the anti-abortion crowd do not see personal responsibility as important to whether someone should have access to an abortion.

LadyCailin 4y ago

If that were really the argument, it would look entirely different, as things like actual sex education, easily obtainable birth control, etc, would all be uncontentious. However, those are also very much subject to debate by the “pro life” crowd.

hackyhacky 4y ago
- philsnow 4y ago
  This may be the case for some but the Catholic worldview is both pro-life and extremely sex-positive, in the appropriate context. If you're talking about not just "women who have sex" but "~women~ people who have sex without regard for the children whom they may conceive", then yeah I'm against that kind of sex.
  - AlexandrB 4y ago
    The Catholic Church opposes the use of condoms[1]. Even in areas of the world where AIDS is rampant. They are not sex-positive, they are procreation-positive. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_HIV/AIDS https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_HIV/AIDS Edit: I suppose the Catholic Church is sex-positive when it comes to their clergy and underage parishioners. Disclaimer: I went to Catholic school for 11 years.
    - dragonwriter 4y ago
      > Catholics oppose the use of condoms Not really. Catholic doctrine might, American Catholics, especially, do not: https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2016/09/28/poll-finds-many-us-catholics-breaking-church-over-contraception-abortion-and-lgbt https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2016/09/28/poll-finds-... > Even in areas of the world where AIDS is rampant. https://www.cnn.com/2016/02/18/health/zika-pope-francis-contraceptives/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2016/02/18/health/zika-pope-francis-cont... (Benedict XVI made somewhat similar comments in 2010 regarding AIDS in Africa.)
      - philsnow 4y ago
        > Catholic doctrine might, American Catholics, especially, do not This is unfortunately true (but unsurprisingly so, especially these days). That doesn't mean that they're somehow right; they don't speak for the Church.
    - philsnow 4y ago
      > The Catholic Church opposes the use of condoms[1]. Even in areas of the world where AIDS is rampant. Correct. > They are not sex-positive, they are procreation-positive. They are both. "Sex-positive" doesn't mean "anything goes". > I suppose the Catholic Church is sex-positive when it comes to their clergy and underage parishioners. No, the Church is harshly critical of this kind of thing. The fact that individual offenders have been shuffled around for decades is to our shame and to the shame of their bishops, but nonetheless the Church is not "for" this kind of thing in any way. > I went to Catholic school for 11 years. At least in America, I'd say the majority of Catholic schools are only nominally Catholic.
      - AlexandrB 4y ago
        > No, the Church is harshly critical of this kind of thing. The fact that individual offenders have been shuffled around for decades is to our shame and to the shame of their bishops, but nonetheless the Church is not "for" this kind of thing in any way. I prefer to judge the church on its actions, not on its words. The bishops/cardinals in question got lofty appointments as their "punishment"[1]. [1] https://theconversation.com/the-catholic-churchs-grim-history-of-ignoring-priestly-pedophilia-and-silencing-would-be-whistleblowers-102387 https://theconversation.com/the-catholic-churchs-grim-histor... > Cardinal Law was neither indicted nor arrested. Instead, Pope John Paul II transferred Law to run one of the Vatican’s most cherished properties, the Basilica of Saint Mary, essentially rewarding Law for his deft cover-up of the abuses in Boston.
  - hackyhacky 4y ago
  - hackyhacky 4y ago
    > If you're talking about not just "women who have sex" but "~women~ people who have sex without regard for the children whom they may conceive", then yeah I'm against that kind of sex. The best way to ensure that children are treated with appropriate regard is to ensure that fewer unwanted children are born.
wilsonnb3 4y ago
I am not sure how the logic I laid out would lead people to support sex education or easily obtainable birth control. It is mostly a personal responsibility thing, as I understand it. You are responsible for creating the baby so you must give up some of your rights like bodily autonomy. Birth control and sex education are not really related to that at all as far as I can tell.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- nobody9999 4y ago
  >It is mostly a personal responsibility thing, as I understand it. You are responsible for creating the baby so you must give up some of your rights like bodily autonomy. If that's what you believe, then don't terminate your pregnancy. As far as anyone else is concerned, it's none of your concern.
  - wilsonnb3 4y ago
    > If that's what you believe, then don't terminate your pregnancy. As far as anyone else is concerned, it's none of your concern. I mean, I personally agree with you. However, there are very few true libertarians in our society and almost everyone has views that they wish to impose on other people. The pro lifers are not different than anyone else in this regard.
    - nobody9999 4y ago
      >almost everyone has views that they wish to impose on other people. And more's the pity.
dionidium 4y ago
The fact that "pro life" is the term for, "against abortion," but can also literally be interpreted to mean, "supports social programs for people who are alive" is childish word games. This isn't a real argument. It doesn't advance any point. It doesn't even logically make sense. It's just playing on the inherent ambiguity of natural language in service of a cheap non sequitur.

slg 4y ago

Which is why there is often an extra focus on situations of rape and incest when little to no active choice has been made to create life.

Fatnino 4y ago
Consentual sex happens, leading to accidental pregnancy. Now the girl's family is incentivised to claim rape so she can get an abortion.
- slg 4y ago
  To be clear, I agree with you. These exceptions are not good enough and can create perverse incentives like you suggest. I was simply citing the lack of these exceptions being universal as evidence that a large percentage of the anti-abortion crowd do not see personal responsibility as important to whether someone should have access to an abortion.