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I think the real problem is your two party system. You don't have a real democracy, you have two gangs of career politicians competing to ruin your country.

orthecreedence 4y ago
Agree! I consistently vote for people who advocate for voter reform (ranked choice elections/STV and all that). It's the only way to break out of this ridiculous mess. Unfortunately I seem to be one of the only people who cares about such things. Granted, there are deeper problems to our democracy than selecting representatives. At this point, our federal government is a puppet to the financial and corporate worlds: a marriage of industry and state. Hmm, where else did that happen?
- ClayShentrup 4y ago
  The voting method is by far the biggest problem.
subpixel 4y ago
Add too that that voters now understand voting as an activity to be leveraged against an opponent as much as or more than in support of an ally. Hence Americans regularly vote against there own self-interest because they have been turned into fans.
thelamest 4y ago
I’m strongly in favor of abandoning FPTP everywhere, etc., but I’d caution against tying hopes to a single cause. IRV/STV/RCV/PV are used around the world, and their effects are not that revolutionary. (My softly preferred approval voting sees least real world use, either way I’m not letting my fantasy run wild.) Politicians, parties and voters adapt to the new ruleset, and in the end some form of median voter theorem still rules (Two coalitions dominate, fighting around the center.) The US system legal and geographical pecularities mean, in broad strokes, that it’s a median voter in a median district in a median state. On the party side, the system shifts much of the coalition-building to significantly before the elections, in comparison to other countries, where it’s done close to or after votes are cast. But then, I too believe we can and should do better.
- ClayShentrup 4y ago
  Seattle will become the third US city to use approval voting this November 2022. It will come to entire US states in the next few years. It will be dominant electoral reform in no time.
tomp 4y ago
This is a common fallacy. The US is the oldest and most stable democracy. It also works more-or-less as intended. On issues where there is broad consensus (e.g. COVID relief) it can move incredibly quickly. On issues where there is broad disagreement (e.g. abortion) it moves very slowly or not at all (requiring compromise). I wish more countries were like the US (or, alternatively, like Switzerland, which represents the other extreme with their direct democracy).
- ClayShentrup 4y ago
  The United States has a deeply flawed democracy and is ranked number 36 by the economist. https://www.democracymatrix.com/ranking https://www.democracymatrix.com/ranking We use the world's worst voting method and are heavily gerrymanded.
sillystuff 4y ago
We barely have two parties. Both Democrats and Republicans are more similar than different on all but a few social issues (these issues can change over time-- for instance, many Republican politicians used to be pro family planning and contraceptives). Both parties use those few social issues to sow all the division they can. E.g., Clinton finished what Reagan had started with NAFTA (Democrat and Republican parties both support neoliberal policies)[1]. Clinton, continuing Reagan's initiative, dismantled the federal welfare system[2]. Clinton signed into law an expansion of policing, lengthened sentences, and a three strikes-- life imprisonment provision[3]. Clinton also supported deregulation and signed Gramm-Leach-Bliley which effectively repealed Glass-Steagal[4]. Clinton could have been a Republican except for a few social issues such as, his justice picks supported Roe v. Wade[5]. Clinton wasn't an outlier. Obama proposed changes to the CPI calculation to reduce, already low, Social Security (public pension) benefits[6]. He continued with financial deregulation signing the Security Modernization Act into law[7]. He supported privatization of schools[8]. His landmark health insurance legislation, which maintained private insurers and health care providers, was originally proposed by a far right think tank, the Heritage Foundation[9]. [1] https://time.com/5468175/nafta-history/ https://time.com/5468175/nafta-history/ [2] https://www.history.com/news/clinton-1990s-welfare-reform-facts https://www.history.com/news/clinton-1990s-welfare-reform-fa... [3] https://www.ncjrs.gov/txtfiles/billfs.txt https://www.ncjrs.gov/txtfiles/billfs.txt [4] https://www.history.com/topics/great-depression/glass-steagall-act https://www.history.com/topics/great-depression/glass-steaga... [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton_Supreme_Court_candidates https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton_Supreme_Court_can... [6] https://money.usnews.com/money/retirement/articles/2013/04/29/how-the-chained-cpi-affects-social-security-payments https://money.usnews.com/money/retirement/articles/2013/04/2... [7] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/financial-services-act-of-1999.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/financial-services-act-... [8] https://blackagendareport.com/obama_legacy_III_privatization_schools https://blackagendareport.com/obama_legacy_III_privatization... [9] https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2010/apr/01/barack-obama/obama-says-heritage-foundation-source-health-excha/ https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2010/apr/01/barack-oba...
ClayShentrup 4y ago
The most promising thing happening in American activism right now is the movement for approval voting. Simpler and better than ranked voting. https://www.electionscience.org/library/approval-voting/ https://www.electionscience.org/library/approval-voting/ It's already used in Fargo and St. Louis and will be voted on this November in Seattle. If a majority approves it, they'll use it August 2023.

orthecreedence 4y ago

Agree! I consistently vote for people who advocate for voter reform (ranked choice elections/STV and all that). It's the only way to break out of this ridiculous mess. Unfortunately I seem to be one of the only people who cares about such things. Granted, there are deeper problems to our democracy than selecting representatives. At this point, our federal government is a puppet to the financial and corporate worlds: a marriage of industry and state. Hmm, where else did that happen?

ClayShentrup 4y ago
The voting method is by far the biggest problem.

subpixel 4y ago

Add too that that voters now understand voting as an activity to be leveraged against an opponent as much as or more than in support of an ally. Hence Americans regularly vote against there own self-interest because they have been turned into fans.

thelamest 4y ago

I’m strongly in favor of abandoning FPTP everywhere, etc., but I’d caution against tying hopes to a single cause. IRV/STV/RCV/PV are used around the world, and their effects are not that revolutionary. (My softly preferred approval voting sees least real world use, either way I’m not letting my fantasy run wild.) Politicians, parties and voters adapt to the new ruleset, and in the end some form of median voter theorem still rules (Two coalitions dominate, fighting around the center.) The US system legal and geographical pecularities mean, in broad strokes, that it’s a median voter in a median district in a median state. On the party side, the system shifts much of the coalition-building to significantly before the elections, in comparison to other countries, where it’s done close to or after votes are cast. But then, I too believe we can and should do better.

ClayShentrup 4y ago
Seattle will become the third US city to use approval voting this November 2022. It will come to entire US states in the next few years. It will be dominant electoral reform in no time.

tomp 4y ago

This is a common fallacy. The US is the oldest and most stable democracy. It also works more-or-less as intended. On issues where there is broad consensus (e.g. COVID relief) it can move incredibly quickly. On issues where there is broad disagreement (e.g. abortion) it moves very slowly or not at all (requiring compromise). I wish more countries were like the US (or, alternatively, like Switzerland, which represents the other extreme with their direct democracy).

ClayShentrup 4y ago
The United States has a deeply flawed democracy and is ranked number 36 by the economist. https://www.democracymatrix.com/ranking https://www.democracymatrix.com/ranking We use the world's worst voting method and are heavily gerrymanded.

sillystuff 4y ago

We barely have two parties. Both Democrats and Republicans are more similar than different on all but a few social issues (these issues can change over time-- for instance, many Republican politicians used to be pro family planning and contraceptives). Both parties use those few social issues to sow all the division they can. E.g., Clinton finished what Reagan had started with NAFTA (Democrat and Republican parties both support neoliberal policies)[1]. Clinton, continuing Reagan's initiative, dismantled the federal welfare system[2]. Clinton signed into law an expansion of policing, lengthened sentences, and a three strikes-- life imprisonment provision[3]. Clinton also supported deregulation and signed Gramm-Leach-Bliley which effectively repealed Glass-Steagal[4]. Clinton could have been a Republican except for a few social issues such as, his justice picks supported Roe v. Wade[5]. Clinton wasn't an outlier. Obama proposed changes to the CPI calculation to reduce, already low, Social Security (public pension) benefits[6]. He continued with financial deregulation signing the Security Modernization Act into law[7]. He supported privatization of schools[8]. His landmark health insurance legislation, which maintained private insurers and health care providers, was originally proposed by a far right think tank, the Heritage Foundation[9]. [1] https://time.com/5468175/nafta-history/ https://time.com/5468175/nafta-history/ [2] https://www.history.com/news/clinton-1990s-welfare-reform-facts https://www.history.com/news/clinton-1990s-welfare-reform-fa... [3] https://www.ncjrs.gov/txtfiles/billfs.txt https://www.ncjrs.gov/txtfiles/billfs.txt [4] https://www.history.com/topics/great-depression/glass-steagall-act https://www.history.com/topics/great-depression/glass-steaga... [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton_Supreme_Court_candidates https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton_Supreme_Court_can... [6] https://money.usnews.com/money/retirement/articles/2013/04/29/how-the-chained-cpi-affects-social-security-payments https://money.usnews.com/money/retirement/articles/2013/04/2... [7] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/financial-services-act-of-1999.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/financial-services-act-... [8] https://blackagendareport.com/obama_legacy_III_privatization_schools https://blackagendareport.com/obama_legacy_III_privatization... [9] https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2010/apr/01/barack-obama/obama-says-heritage-foundation-source-health-excha/ https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2010/apr/01/barack-oba...

ClayShentrup 4y ago

The most promising thing happening in American activism right now is the movement for approval voting. Simpler and better than ranked voting. https://www.electionscience.org/library/approval-voting/ https://www.electionscience.org/library/approval-voting/ It's already used in Fargo and St. Louis and will be voted on this November in Seattle. If a majority approves it, they'll use it August 2023.