3 ms·

It does nothing of a sort. Stop lying.

by MatthewORyan 4y ago

thomastjeffery 4y ago
Numbers 3:39-40 Genesis 2:7 Numbers 5:27 I'm not lying.
- svieira 4y ago
  * Numbers 3:39-40 is taking an account of those of circumcisable age (e. g. those who are inducted into the covenant between God and Israel). That says nothing about their humanity. * The "ruah" of God is not the breath we take in with our lungs - and even if it were, that says how God created Adam, not how God created their children. Jeremiah 1:5 and Luke 1:44 * Numbers 5:27 - floor dust and burnt grain will not cause a woman to miscarry. Lying about the truth in front of the Truth Himself is grounds for punishment, but from God alone. Acts 5:1-10
  - thomastjeffery 4y ago
    > That says nothing about their humanity. To you. But that's your interpretation. > even if it were, that says how God created Adam, not how God created their children. When one turns to The Bible for an answer about when conception becomes life, this is the clearest answer given. Arguing that it's not a clear enough answer supports my point. > Jeremiah 1:5 > > Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart You can still interpret that as development happening in the womb (not life yet) prior to the event that defines life (birth). I personally find that a clearer reading. Otherwise there is no reason to talk about birth as a second event. > > As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. Now The Bible has contradicted itself. Until now, life began at breath, but now we have a fetus leaping for joy. We still have an unanswered question: when does the soul enter the body? At first breath? When the fetus is developed enough to move? When the heart develops enough to beat? When the blastocyst sticks to the uterine wall? When the zygote starts multiplying? When the DNA from the sperm is copied next to the DNA from the egg? Was it just this instance that the fetus became a living person (with a soul) early? None of these questions is answered clearly enough that I would be willing to base the law on it. > floor dust and burnt grain will not cause a woman to miscarry. I didn't say it would, the book did. > Lying about the truth in front of the Truth Himself is grounds for punishment, but from God alone. Is that a threat? How petty. But wasn't it The Bible itself lying here and not me? So you are using the book to threaten... the book? Have fun with that. Just don't expect me to play along.
    - svieira 4y ago
      >> Lying about the truth in front of the Truth Himself is grounds for punishment, but from God alone. > Is that a threat? Not a threat - a description of what is going in Numbers. The woman is taking an oath before God that the child she is carrying is hers. If she lies, she is lying to God. I don't believe you are lying, I think you are genuine - which is a very good thing. I hope and pray that "you are not far from the Kingdom of God" could very well be said of you. As to "life", "breath", "personhood", "ensoulment", and "birth" - how deep do you want to go?
      - thomastjeffery 4y ago
        > I hope and pray that "you are not far from the Kingdom of God" could very well be said of you. Personally, I hope to get as far away from "The Kingdom of God" as I can. Why? Because ideas that I don't believe in like "soul" and "sin" are being used to oppress me in the name of that very Kingdom. Being genuine is not enough. This is about life and death. Living breathing thinking feeling loving hoping yearning people are going to endure pain and even death because of this ruling. All because people like you believe so strongly in a modern interpretation of an ancient collection of novels that don't even say what they have interpreted. > As to "life", "breath", "personhood", "ensoulment", and "birth" - how deep do you want to go? To me, it's not so much about the distance as the journey. I would rather live a short life in liberty than a long one in oppression. How far do you, and the rest of the conservative Christians behind this decision, want to push us? How far will be bend to your collective whims? Today, the answer is clearly, "Too far."

It does nothing of a sort. Stop lying.

thomastjeffery 4y ago

Numbers 3:39-40 Genesis 2:7 Numbers 5:27 I'm not lying.

svieira 4y ago
* Numbers 3:39-40 is taking an account of those of circumcisable age (e. g. those who are inducted into the covenant between God and Israel). That says nothing about their humanity. * The "ruah" of God is not the breath we take in with our lungs - and even if it were, that says how God created Adam, not how God created their children. Jeremiah 1:5 and Luke 1:44 * Numbers 5:27 - floor dust and burnt grain will not cause a woman to miscarry. Lying about the truth in front of the Truth Himself is grounds for punishment, but from God alone. Acts 5:1-10
- thomastjeffery 4y ago
  > That says nothing about their humanity. To you. But that's your interpretation. > even if it were, that says how God created Adam, not how God created their children. When one turns to The Bible for an answer about when conception becomes life, this is the clearest answer given. Arguing that it's not a clear enough answer supports my point. > Jeremiah 1:5 > > Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart You can still interpret that as development happening in the womb (not life yet) prior to the event that defines life (birth). I personally find that a clearer reading. Otherwise there is no reason to talk about birth as a second event. > > As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. Now The Bible has contradicted itself. Until now, life began at breath, but now we have a fetus leaping for joy. We still have an unanswered question: when does the soul enter the body? At first breath? When the fetus is developed enough to move? When the heart develops enough to beat? When the blastocyst sticks to the uterine wall? When the zygote starts multiplying? When the DNA from the sperm is copied next to the DNA from the egg? Was it just this instance that the fetus became a living person (with a soul) early? None of these questions is answered clearly enough that I would be willing to base the law on it. > floor dust and burnt grain will not cause a woman to miscarry. I didn't say it would, the book did. > Lying about the truth in front of the Truth Himself is grounds for punishment, but from God alone. Is that a threat? How petty. But wasn't it The Bible itself lying here and not me? So you are using the book to threaten... the book? Have fun with that. Just don't expect me to play along.
  - svieira 4y ago
    >> Lying about the truth in front of the Truth Himself is grounds for punishment, but from God alone. > Is that a threat? Not a threat - a description of what is going in Numbers. The woman is taking an oath before God that the child she is carrying is hers. If she lies, she is lying to God. I don't believe you are lying, I think you are genuine - which is a very good thing. I hope and pray that "you are not far from the Kingdom of God" could very well be said of you. As to "life", "breath", "personhood", "ensoulment", and "birth" - how deep do you want to go?
    - thomastjeffery 4y ago
      > I hope and pray that "you are not far from the Kingdom of God" could very well be said of you. Personally, I hope to get as far away from "The Kingdom of God" as I can. Why? Because ideas that I don't believe in like "soul" and "sin" are being used to oppress me in the name of that very Kingdom. Being genuine is not enough. This is about life and death. Living breathing thinking feeling loving hoping yearning people are going to endure pain and even death because of this ruling. All because people like you believe so strongly in a modern interpretation of an ancient collection of novels that don't even say what they have interpreted. > As to "life", "breath", "personhood", "ensoulment", and "birth" - how deep do you want to go? To me, it's not so much about the distance as the journey. I would rather live a short life in liberty than a long one in oppression. How far do you, and the rest of the conservative Christians behind this decision, want to push us? How far will be bend to your collective whims? Today, the answer is clearly, "Too far."