4 ms·

Abortion is clearly not murder. Treating it as such has horrible implications. Let’s start with the belief that life starts at conception. With this belief, a

Abortion is clearly not murder. Treating it as such has horrible implications. Let’s start with the belief that life starts at conception. With this belief, a fetus is equivalent in protection to a newborn. Following this, voluntarily ending it is murder. Then what about miscarriage? If a newborn were to die under unknown circumstances, there should be an investigation. Should then all pregnant people be investigated for potential negligence or abuse for this already traumatizing situation? 1/3 to 1/2 of all fertilized eggs never implant. Should these be scrutinized? I cannot see how one can say a fetus and newborn deserve equivalent protections and then fail to give them. Further, what about support for abortion exceptions for incest or rape? If the pregnancy in this scenario went to term and the child was born, one wouldn’t then support that murdering the newborn was OK. If you don’t believe these things, then you don’t believe newborns and fetuses deserve equal protection. You only happen to believe specific fetuses deserve one specific protection.

l33t2328 4y ago
> Then what about miscarriage? This argument has always struck me as odd. A miscarriage is, for lack of a better word, a random natural event. People die from random natural events all the time.
- divided 4y ago
  Do you really believe all miscarriages are random and that none are due to alcohol, drugs, malnutrition, or other reasons? Now hopefully in the future the argument won’t strike you as odd.
ModernMech 4y ago
> what about support for abortion exceptions for incest or rape? If you’ve been paying attention, exceptions for incest and rape are being thrown out of the window in most red states. That was a pre supermajority compromise. Now that the supreme court is a conservative supermajority, the compromise position is no longer desirable for conservatives. They have the power and they are using it.
- divided 4y ago
  I’m aware and it’s terrifying. Traditionally most anti-abortion advocates supported the exception, and I still believe most Republican voters support the exception. But they elect extremists to govern. I’d like to believe being more aware of the extremism would temper voters towards moderation, but I fear instead history proves the voters are more likely to have their views shift towards extremism.
hash9 4y ago
> Then what about miscarriage? If a newborn were to die under unknown circumstances, there should be an investigation. Most states have laws regarding causing miscarriage via assault, even California so there are investigations already.
- divided 4y ago
  You’ve missed the point in the quote you pulled. Assault is hardly an unknown circumstance. To draw the parallel to a newborn, some pass away from SIDS, some from abuse, some from malnutrition. Investigations are performed in suspicious circumstances. Sometimes it truly happens to be random or unknown or unpreventable. If one were to treat fetuses the same, wouldn’t one want to verify there was no abuse or neglect? I.E. the causes are unknown, it could be a random natural event, it could be due to someone’s actions, the only way to know is to investigate. To my knowledge, nobody currently gets investigated for a miscarriage of unknown cause. One can only hope it stays that way.
Glide 4y ago
States have have recently passed laws have added in exceptions for the things you've brought up. Also looking up the definition of abortion in this case is important: https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/data_stats/abortion.htm https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/data_stats/abortion.h... For the purpose of surveillance, a legal induced abortion is defined as an intervention performed by a licensed clinician (e.g., a physician, nurse-midwife, nurse practitioner, physician assistant) within the limits of state regulations, that is intended to terminate a suspected or known ongoing intrauterine pregnancy and that does not result in a live birth. Most states and reporting areas that collect abortion data report if an abortion was medical or surgical. Medical abortions are legal procedures that use medications instead of surgery.
- divided 4y ago
  I’d like to engage, but I’m unsure what your point is. Adding exceptions is antithetical to the belief it is murder. One does not get to murder another person because they were a child of incest. On the other hand, not adding an exception for abortion is monstrous. If you agree that forcing a woman to give birth to a child of rape or incest is monstrous, then maybe you’ll agree abortion isn’t murder. If you think it’s not monstrous, I hope it never happens to you or someone you love just to be taught a hard lesson in empathy for others. I’m unsure why you’re quoting the definition of a legally induced abortion and why you feel it important to your argument.

l33t2328 4y ago

> Then what about miscarriage? This argument has always struck me as odd. A miscarriage is, for lack of a better word, a random natural event. People die from random natural events all the time.

divided 4y ago
Do you really believe all miscarriages are random and that none are due to alcohol, drugs, malnutrition, or other reasons? Now hopefully in the future the argument won’t strike you as odd.

ModernMech 4y ago

> what about support for abortion exceptions for incest or rape? If you’ve been paying attention, exceptions for incest and rape are being thrown out of the window in most red states. That was a pre supermajority compromise. Now that the supreme court is a conservative supermajority, the compromise position is no longer desirable for conservatives. They have the power and they are using it.

divided 4y ago
I’m aware and it’s terrifying. Traditionally most anti-abortion advocates supported the exception, and I still believe most Republican voters support the exception. But they elect extremists to govern. I’d like to believe being more aware of the extremism would temper voters towards moderation, but I fear instead history proves the voters are more likely to have their views shift towards extremism.

hash9 4y ago

> Then what about miscarriage? If a newborn were to die under unknown circumstances, there should be an investigation. Most states have laws regarding causing miscarriage via assault, even California so there are investigations already.

divided 4y ago
You’ve missed the point in the quote you pulled. Assault is hardly an unknown circumstance. To draw the parallel to a newborn, some pass away from SIDS, some from abuse, some from malnutrition. Investigations are performed in suspicious circumstances. Sometimes it truly happens to be random or unknown or unpreventable. If one were to treat fetuses the same, wouldn’t one want to verify there was no abuse or neglect? I.E. the causes are unknown, it could be a random natural event, it could be due to someone’s actions, the only way to know is to investigate. To my knowledge, nobody currently gets investigated for a miscarriage of unknown cause. One can only hope it stays that way.

Glide 4y ago

States have have recently passed laws have added in exceptions for the things you've brought up. Also looking up the definition of abortion in this case is important: https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/data_stats/abortion.htm https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/data_stats/abortion.h... For the purpose of surveillance, a legal induced abortion is defined as an intervention performed by a licensed clinician (e.g., a physician, nurse-midwife, nurse practitioner, physician assistant) within the limits of state regulations, that is intended to terminate a suspected or known ongoing intrauterine pregnancy and that does not result in a live birth. Most states and reporting areas that collect abortion data report if an abortion was medical or surgical. Medical abortions are legal procedures that use medications instead of surgery.

divided 4y ago
I’d like to engage, but I’m unsure what your point is. Adding exceptions is antithetical to the belief it is murder. One does not get to murder another person because they were a child of incest. On the other hand, not adding an exception for abortion is monstrous. If you agree that forcing a woman to give birth to a child of rape or incest is monstrous, then maybe you’ll agree abortion isn’t murder. If you think it’s not monstrous, I hope it never happens to you or someone you love just to be taught a hard lesson in empathy for others. I’m unsure why you’re quoting the definition of a legally induced abortion and why you feel it important to your argument.