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But that isn't answering the question. You're just saying blockchains are good "because slippery slope" without mentioning what they actually do.

jazzyjackson 4y ago
I thought their answer was very clear: facilitates illegal transactions this is a good thing because tyrannical governments make all kinds of things illegal, and blockchain removes some of this absolute power to prevent various transactions
- hnthrow1010 4y ago
  Speaking as someone who has been harmed by ransomware, no, it is very much not a good thing. But presuming it was a good thing that I get my data held for ransom, there's no explanation as to why blockchains are uniquely suited to remove some of that absolute power. They appear to be no different from any other illegal digital banking scheme, such as Liberty Reserve: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Reserve https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Reserve Specifically, the "product" is they've assembled a criminal conspiracy to launder money and hide fraud, and they're offering it as a service. When you have sophisticated scammers running them it always takes time for regulators to unravel these schemes; blockchains certainly did not invent this.
  - gfodor 4y ago
    > "in some cases, transacting against the law is a good thing" > "as a victim of ransomware, it is very much not a good thing" Blatantly fallacious argument, the point isn't to defend ransomware, but to defend other examples of illegality that are justified.
  - throwaway0x7E6 4y ago
    another great argument in favor of banning cryptography. no encryption - no ransomware
    - randomhodler84 4y ago
      Indeed! We should also ban crime too, that will surely stop it. Why not get rid of general purpose computation and global communication networks while we are torching our technological footprint.
      - throwaway0x7E6 4y ago
        the Internet is here to stay. too useful for commerce and disseminating propaganda globally. it will remain, in some perverse walled-garden form general purpose computation though... I feel it's already on the chopping block. I think we'll see the first signs during the upcoming "cyber pandemic".
        randomhodler84 4y ago
        They will take my intels amd and rpis from my cold dead hands!
        hnthrow1010 4y ago
        If you're caught committing crimes (like for instance, using the computers to arrange transactions of human trafficking) and you invoke a standoff and shootout with the police, then yes, they probably will. That's true with or without blockchains. And because I can see where this is going: The takes along the lines of "it's not illegal, I was just flipping some electrons into ones and zeros" is a really bad take, you can do better than that.
        randomhodler84 4y ago
        Agreed. Crime is not a good thing, and please do not thing I am trying to endorse it. I just know that it exists and will use whatever resources it has access to. I philosophically disagree with denying ourselves something because someone somewhere can do crime. Now, encryption and by extension cryptocurrency, this is truly revolutionary. They can shoot me in the head, but they cannot read my data, access my devices, or take the money. All that remains is silicon and metal. I like the idea that when I die, everything I have written privately, and every sat I have earned will rest forever, unreachably.
  - jazzyjackson 4y ago
    > They appear to be no different from any other illegal digital banking scheme. One very important distinction is that Liberty Reserve doesn't exist anymore, because they didn't bother to design a technology that enabled them to dodge prosecution.
    - hnthrow1010 4y ago
      Neither did various crypto scams. The big exchanges that the regulators will go after are all centralized.
      - gfodor 4y ago
        the bitcoin blockchain seems unlikely to ever stop producing blocks until the end of human civilization
- cecilpl2 4y ago
  Non-tyrannical governments (ie most governments) also make very harmful things illegal for very good reasons, and a system which can facilitate these harmful things is in itself a harmful thing. I don't know how you can argue that facilitating illegal transactions is on balance a good thing, unless you also argue that the world would be better off if all currently-illegal transactions were instead legal.
  - randomhodler84 4y ago
    The problem is where does one determine the point of tyranny? You will find that even the most apparently benign governments can turn given the political will of elected tyrants. I’d say a government that outlaws abortion is a tyrannical overlord with no legitimacy. And yet here we are.

jazzyjackson 4y ago

I thought their answer was very clear: facilitates illegal transactions this is a good thing because tyrannical governments make all kinds of things illegal, and blockchain removes some of this absolute power to prevent various transactions

hnthrow1010 4y ago
Speaking as someone who has been harmed by ransomware, no, it is very much not a good thing. But presuming it was a good thing that I get my data held for ransom, there's no explanation as to why blockchains are uniquely suited to remove some of that absolute power. They appear to be no different from any other illegal digital banking scheme, such as Liberty Reserve: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Reserve https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Reserve Specifically, the "product" is they've assembled a criminal conspiracy to launder money and hide fraud, and they're offering it as a service. When you have sophisticated scammers running them it always takes time for regulators to unravel these schemes; blockchains certainly did not invent this.
- gfodor 4y ago
  > "in some cases, transacting against the law is a good thing" > "as a victim of ransomware, it is very much not a good thing" Blatantly fallacious argument, the point isn't to defend ransomware, but to defend other examples of illegality that are justified.
- throwaway0x7E6 4y ago
  another great argument in favor of banning cryptography. no encryption - no ransomware
  - randomhodler84 4y ago
    Indeed! We should also ban crime too, that will surely stop it. Why not get rid of general purpose computation and global communication networks while we are torching our technological footprint.
    - throwaway0x7E6 4y ago
      the Internet is here to stay. too useful for commerce and disseminating propaganda globally. it will remain, in some perverse walled-garden form general purpose computation though... I feel it's already on the chopping block. I think we'll see the first signs during the upcoming "cyber pandemic".
      - randomhodler84 4y ago
        They will take my intels amd and rpis from my cold dead hands!
        hnthrow1010 4y ago
        If you're caught committing crimes (like for instance, using the computers to arrange transactions of human trafficking) and you invoke a standoff and shootout with the police, then yes, they probably will. That's true with or without blockchains. And because I can see where this is going: The takes along the lines of "it's not illegal, I was just flipping some electrons into ones and zeros" is a really bad take, you can do better than that.
        randomhodler84 4y ago
        Agreed. Crime is not a good thing, and please do not thing I am trying to endorse it. I just know that it exists and will use whatever resources it has access to. I philosophically disagree with denying ourselves something because someone somewhere can do crime. Now, encryption and by extension cryptocurrency, this is truly revolutionary. They can shoot me in the head, but they cannot read my data, access my devices, or take the money. All that remains is silicon and metal. I like the idea that when I die, everything I have written privately, and every sat I have earned will rest forever, unreachably.
- jazzyjackson 4y ago
  > They appear to be no different from any other illegal digital banking scheme. One very important distinction is that Liberty Reserve doesn't exist anymore, because they didn't bother to design a technology that enabled them to dodge prosecution.
  - hnthrow1010 4y ago
    Neither did various crypto scams. The big exchanges that the regulators will go after are all centralized.
    - gfodor 4y ago
      the bitcoin blockchain seems unlikely to ever stop producing blocks until the end of human civilization
cecilpl2 4y ago
Non-tyrannical governments (ie most governments) also make very harmful things illegal for very good reasons, and a system which can facilitate these harmful things is in itself a harmful thing. I don't know how you can argue that facilitating illegal transactions is on balance a good thing, unless you also argue that the world would be better off if all currently-illegal transactions were instead legal.
- randomhodler84 4y ago
  The problem is where does one determine the point of tyranny? You will find that even the most apparently benign governments can turn given the political will of elected tyrants. I’d say a government that outlaws abortion is a tyrannical overlord with no legitimacy. And yet here we are.