7 ms·

This isn't logical though. People will still get abortions, all this will change is who can get abortions. So it's clearly about control.

josephcsible 4y ago
If abortions are bad, then it's good if fewer people get them, whether or not the reduction is spread evenly across different demographics.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  If abortions are bad, why are the same people who want to ban abortions the ones who want to ban contraceptives? That would do a lot more to reduce abortions in reality than any law can.
  - Clubber 4y ago
    >If abortions are bad, why are the same people who want to ban abortions the ones who want to ban contraceptives? That would do a lot more to reduce abortions in reality than any law can. I would imagine they believe the point of sex is to conceive. Both those things prevent conception.
    - rootusrootus 4y ago
      I agree. They are not actually trying to reduce the number of abortions, they are taking a religious/moral position.
  - rufus_foreman 4y ago
    That's a straw man. Only 6% of Americans think birth control should be illegal, https://today.yougov.com/topics/health/articles-reports/2022/06/09/birth-control-yougov-poll-may-9-12-2022 https://today.yougov.com/topics/health/articles-reports/2022....
- Jcowell 4y ago
  I would think programmers of all people can understand complex problems do not have simple solutions. There are variables to weigh, numbers to be analyzed. And that’s not even getting what is “good” and “bad” and if a laws purpose is to outright outlaw them without thinking of other measures and consequences.
- pstuart 4y ago
  If abortions are bad then providing birth control and sexual education to prevent unwanted pregnancies would be good, right? But those are going to be gutted next. Hmmmm....
- wahnfrieden 4y ago
  a lot packed into that if - eg you are including categories such as rape victims who are expected to die in childbirth, feel like you should be explicit in the true extent of what you're advocating
  - josephcsible 4y ago
    When would someone who's expected to die in childbirth be saved by an abortion but not by an emergency C-section?
    - Jcowell 4y ago
      If the emergency C-section is to get the non viable fetus out , how is that still not an abortion? The only alternative I can think of is that a women should carry the non viable fetus into term for 9 whole months instead of getting it out of her as soon as she can.
      - josephcsible 4y ago
        Modern hospitals can save babies born as early as 22 weeks. If a full-term birth would kill the mother, then a date between 22 weeks and full term should be chosen that maximizes the chance that both mother and child survive.
      - wahnfrieden 4y ago
        Not just women, you're also talking about forced pregnancy/birth of for instance 11 year old girls
    - MandieD 4y ago
      Because they didn’t have their body subjected to those last, most difficult months of pregnancy. My own surprise (but very wanted!) pregnancy was easy the first few months - I even skied up through week 16, but around week 30 I started developing back pain and intermittent numbness in some of my toes that is still around, after nearly two years and lots of physical therapy. And I was always considered to be having a “healthy” pregnancy, and was pretty healthy beforehand. Only unusual thing is that I was 40. For a more extreme but still realistic hypothetical, I have a severely physically disabled friend who weighs about 60 lbs and requires regular mechanical breathing assistance. She is, as far as she knows, just as capable of getting pregnant as I am. She also knows that she would not survive more than a few weeks of pregnancy. There are many people capable of becoming pregnant who live somewhere between these two extremes.
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  If drugs are bad, then it's good if fewer people get them, whether or not the reduction is spread evenly across different demographics. Therefore it's okay to use racially-targeted methods of enforcement and arrest poor, ethnic minorities, etc. as long as we get at least a little drug reduction out of it.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
  Ah, but this is where it gets fun. Different power centers see abortions from different perspectives. The state wants ( and benefits from ) more taxpayers, while corporates benefit from ensuring workflow is not interrupted by biological needs.
RHSeeger 4y ago
There are people for whom this is about control. There are people for whom this is about preventing murder. The two groups, while they may overlap, are not the same; they just vote the same on this topic.
overrun11 4y ago
We don't use this standard of reasoning for anything else. If abortion is murder then it ought to be banned regardless of how effective the ban may be. Your job is to argue that abortion is not murder. Any argument that sidesteps the morality of abortion is not going to convince anyone.
- rswail 4y ago
  > Your job is to argue that abortion is not murder. Sure, and your job is to argue that abortion causes the death of a viable human life. Murder is defined as "the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another." Abortion isn't that.
  - overrun11 4y ago
    Yeah I reject that definition and am not particularly considered with dictionary definitions when determining what is moral. By this definition we couldn't consider any killing sanctioned by the state to be murder.
  - overrun11 4y ago
    You'll need to carve out a definition of "viable" that excludes late term fetuses that could survive outside the womb but includes born babies that cannot survive without the care of adults.
- colinmhayes 4y ago
  If you drink and drive and cause a car crash that requires you give a blood transfusion is it murder to refuse? I think hardly anyone would say that, because society has decided the right of bodily autonomy is paramount. I don't see abortion as any different from refusing to save someone you hurt in a car crash you caused.
  - aftbit 4y ago
    In this _particular_ case, I think it would indeed be considered vehicular homicide if you drove drunk and killed someone. If you could and did save them by giving a blood transfusion, then you would likely still be guilty of some crime for hitting them in the first place, but not homicide.
Chris2048 4y ago
The wealthy/connected are probably better at getting away with murder/theft/rape/etc too, it doesn't mean we should legalise it in the name of equality. Also, nothing prevents further restrictions on abortion in the future, for those that still can get them.
jonhohle 4y ago
I would imagine the states that outlaw abortions will have significantly fewer. Is there any evidence that comes close to suggesting the rate of abortions is the same now as prior to RvW? America has an abortion rate in line with former Soviet countries and exceptionally higher than most of the western world. It has disproportionally harmed the population that it supposedly “helps”. The eugenicist roots of the founders of the largest supporter should be evidence enough for the goals of that movement.
- LocalH 4y ago
  Illegal abortions don't get recorded in the same way as legal ones do, so the "statistics" are meaningless.
- Jcowell 4y ago
  I see no merit in a society that allows unwanted unloved children to be born and lives to now be chained down for 18 years minimum. I would rather a productive person today then a who knows what 20 years in the future.
  - jonhohle 4y ago
    Unwanted or unloved by whom? Visit a foster/adoption group and you’ll meet plenty of people wanting to give kids a safe, loving environment. (I’m not saying any particular foster program is adequate, rather the idea that a child is “unwanted” or “unloved” is a fallacy.)
- rswail 4y ago
  Maybe that rate of abortion, as it was in Soviet countries, is due to the lack of contraception and family planning in the US. That is tied to the structure of the health system. Why is it that people that want to outlaw abortion, and are willing to pay for the policing and prosecution resources necessary to enforce that law aren't willing to invest the same amount into contraception that would have a similar effect. Is it better to clean up after an oil spill, or ensure that the spill doesn't happen in the first place?

josephcsible 4y ago

If abortions are bad, then it's good if fewer people get them, whether or not the reduction is spread evenly across different demographics.

rootusrootus 4y ago
If abortions are bad, why are the same people who want to ban abortions the ones who want to ban contraceptives? That would do a lot more to reduce abortions in reality than any law can.
- Clubber 4y ago
  >If abortions are bad, why are the same people who want to ban abortions the ones who want to ban contraceptives? That would do a lot more to reduce abortions in reality than any law can. I would imagine they believe the point of sex is to conceive. Both those things prevent conception.
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    I agree. They are not actually trying to reduce the number of abortions, they are taking a religious/moral position.
- rufus_foreman 4y ago
  That's a straw man. Only 6% of Americans think birth control should be illegal, https://today.yougov.com/topics/health/articles-reports/2022/06/09/birth-control-yougov-poll-may-9-12-2022 https://today.yougov.com/topics/health/articles-reports/2022....
Jcowell 4y ago
I would think programmers of all people can understand complex problems do not have simple solutions. There are variables to weigh, numbers to be analyzed. And that’s not even getting what is “good” and “bad” and if a laws purpose is to outright outlaw them without thinking of other measures and consequences.
pstuart 4y ago
If abortions are bad then providing birth control and sexual education to prevent unwanted pregnancies would be good, right? But those are going to be gutted next. Hmmmm....
wahnfrieden 4y ago
a lot packed into that if - eg you are including categories such as rape victims who are expected to die in childbirth, feel like you should be explicit in the true extent of what you're advocating
- josephcsible 4y ago
  When would someone who's expected to die in childbirth be saved by an abortion but not by an emergency C-section?
  - Jcowell 4y ago
    If the emergency C-section is to get the non viable fetus out , how is that still not an abortion? The only alternative I can think of is that a women should carry the non viable fetus into term for 9 whole months instead of getting it out of her as soon as she can.
    - josephcsible 4y ago
      Modern hospitals can save babies born as early as 22 weeks. If a full-term birth would kill the mother, then a date between 22 weeks and full term should be chosen that maximizes the chance that both mother and child survive.
    - wahnfrieden 4y ago
      Not just women, you're also talking about forced pregnancy/birth of for instance 11 year old girls
  - MandieD 4y ago
    Because they didn’t have their body subjected to those last, most difficult months of pregnancy. My own surprise (but very wanted!) pregnancy was easy the first few months - I even skied up through week 16, but around week 30 I started developing back pain and intermittent numbness in some of my toes that is still around, after nearly two years and lots of physical therapy. And I was always considered to be having a “healthy” pregnancy, and was pretty healthy beforehand. Only unusual thing is that I was 40. For a more extreme but still realistic hypothetical, I have a severely physically disabled friend who weighs about 60 lbs and requires regular mechanical breathing assistance. She is, as far as she knows, just as capable of getting pregnant as I am. She also knows that she would not survive more than a few weeks of pregnancy. There are many people capable of becoming pregnant who live somewhere between these two extremes.
ClumsyPilot 4y ago
If drugs are bad, then it's good if fewer people get them, whether or not the reduction is spread evenly across different demographics. Therefore it's okay to use racially-targeted methods of enforcement and arrest poor, ethnic minorities, etc. as long as we get at least a little drug reduction out of it.
A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
Ah, but this is where it gets fun. Different power centers see abortions from different perspectives. The state wants ( and benefits from ) more taxpayers, while corporates benefit from ensuring workflow is not interrupted by biological needs.

RHSeeger 4y ago

There are people for whom this is about control. There are people for whom this is about preventing murder. The two groups, while they may overlap, are not the same; they just vote the same on this topic.

overrun11 4y ago

We don't use this standard of reasoning for anything else. If abortion is murder then it ought to be banned regardless of how effective the ban may be. Your job is to argue that abortion is not murder. Any argument that sidesteps the morality of abortion is not going to convince anyone.

rswail 4y ago
> Your job is to argue that abortion is not murder. Sure, and your job is to argue that abortion causes the death of a viable human life. Murder is defined as "the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another." Abortion isn't that.
- overrun11 4y ago
  Yeah I reject that definition and am not particularly considered with dictionary definitions when determining what is moral. By this definition we couldn't consider any killing sanctioned by the state to be murder.
- overrun11 4y ago
  You'll need to carve out a definition of "viable" that excludes late term fetuses that could survive outside the womb but includes born babies that cannot survive without the care of adults.
colinmhayes 4y ago
If you drink and drive and cause a car crash that requires you give a blood transfusion is it murder to refuse? I think hardly anyone would say that, because society has decided the right of bodily autonomy is paramount. I don't see abortion as any different from refusing to save someone you hurt in a car crash you caused.
- aftbit 4y ago
  In this _particular_ case, I think it would indeed be considered vehicular homicide if you drove drunk and killed someone. If you could and did save them by giving a blood transfusion, then you would likely still be guilty of some crime for hitting them in the first place, but not homicide.

Chris2048 4y ago

The wealthy/connected are probably better at getting away with murder/theft/rape/etc too, it doesn't mean we should legalise it in the name of equality. Also, nothing prevents further restrictions on abortion in the future, for those that still can get them.

jonhohle 4y ago

I would imagine the states that outlaw abortions will have significantly fewer. Is there any evidence that comes close to suggesting the rate of abortions is the same now as prior to RvW? America has an abortion rate in line with former Soviet countries and exceptionally higher than most of the western world. It has disproportionally harmed the population that it supposedly “helps”. The eugenicist roots of the founders of the largest supporter should be evidence enough for the goals of that movement.

LocalH 4y ago
Illegal abortions don't get recorded in the same way as legal ones do, so the "statistics" are meaningless.
Jcowell 4y ago
I see no merit in a society that allows unwanted unloved children to be born and lives to now be chained down for 18 years minimum. I would rather a productive person today then a who knows what 20 years in the future.
- jonhohle 4y ago
  Unwanted or unloved by whom? Visit a foster/adoption group and you’ll meet plenty of people wanting to give kids a safe, loving environment. (I’m not saying any particular foster program is adequate, rather the idea that a child is “unwanted” or “unloved” is a fallacy.)
rswail 4y ago
Maybe that rate of abortion, as it was in Soviet countries, is due to the lack of contraception and family planning in the US. That is tied to the structure of the health system. Why is it that people that want to outlaw abortion, and are willing to pay for the policing and prosecution resources necessary to enforce that law aren't willing to invest the same amount into contraception that would have a similar effect. Is it better to clean up after an oil spill, or ensure that the spill doesn't happen in the first place?