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> while Jesus Christ never gave to abortion the slightest mention In his defense, Jesus came to fulfill the old law and not abolish it, as directly stated by h

> while Jesus Christ never gave to abortion the slightest mention In his defense, Jesus came to fulfill the old law and not abolish it, as directly stated by himself. The old law has the 5th commandment, "Thou shalt not kill," which in the times of Jesus was unanimously interpreted to cover abortion (Psalm 139 being one reason why) and Jesus, by not speaking against this interpretation (unlike other interpretations), left that view unchanged.

charonn0 4y ago
Immediately after receiving the 10 commandments, Moses orders the Israelites to slaughter their friends, family, and neighbors who worshiped the golden calf. And God approved.
- mcphage 4y ago
  And then God send them to genocide their way through the promised land.
0xB31B1B 4y ago
You are incorrect. The bible does not support fetal personhood. The bible clearly gives fetuses a lower moral valence than a living person and discusses that an accident that results in a stillbirth is not equivalent to "killing a person". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism_and_abortion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism_and_abortion
- gjsman-1000 4y ago
  Modern Judaism differs from Historical Judaism in this respect. For example, the "Rabbinic sources" sounds historical... but then the first person quoted lived in the 1700s.
  - 0xB31B1B 4y ago
    I wasn't referencing modern judaism, I was referencing the word of god itself, which clearly does not support any notion of fetal personhood.
haubey 4y ago
>unanimously interpreted to cover abortion Exodus 21:22-23 recounts a story of two men who are fighting and injure a pregnant woman, resulting in her subsequent miscarriage. The verse explains that if the only harm done is the miscarriage, then the perpetrator must pay a fine. However, if the pregnant person is gravely injured, the penalty shall be a life for a life as in homicides. Jesus was Jewish and fetuses aren't considered persons under Jewish law.
- gjsman-1000 4y ago
  > Jesus was Jewish and fetuses aren't considered persons under Jewish law. A counterargument would be that the Jewish law does not address whether they are persons, but rather focuses on the fine being the solution to the matter. The law also only addresses if the incident should occur by accident (the miscarriage being a side effect), whereas deliberately inducing a miscarriage was not included. EDIT: Adding more information (also due to reply timers): @DangItBobby The verse in question: "When men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no harm follows, the one who hurt her shall be fined, according as the woman’s husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life." A few notes. 1. The law only addresses unintentional injury, and does not address intentional injuries. 2. The law does not specify "injury." It could mean an injury that occurs to the pregnant woman, the unborn child, or both. One way to interpret the passage is that if the woman is caused to have an early delivery, then the penalty is a fine, but any further injury to the child is covered under the lex talionis law of “an eye for an eye.” 3. The law actually calls the fetus a "child," and takes foregranted that the woman "is with child" which pretty clearly shows that the personhood was taken foregranted.
  - DangitBobby 4y ago
    > The law also only addresses if the incident should occur by accident (the miscarriage being a side effect), whereas deliberately inducing a miscarriage was not included. Nope, that's covered. In the verse, accidental damage to the human mother was punishable by death.
  - 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
qalmakka 4y ago
The old testament also banned eating shrimp and that people working on Saturday should be stoned, so I kind of see lots of cherry picking here. It's also highly ambiguous if the fetus should be considered a human being or property (see Exodus), but that's not the point. The core point was that most of the message and teachings of Jesus were clearly, unambiguously about social justice and charity, and yet modern Christians care way more about Old Testament moral rules than the actual Christian message, what Jesus clearly cared about the most, the last, the meek, the poor. The modern Christian votes for racist ultra-rich that only profess hate towards everyone that's different from them in order to get abortion and gay marriage banned. That's the worst corruption of the Christian message possible, in my opinion, and makes those people phony believers to my eyes. They use their as an indentitarian way to distinguish them from the others, which is absolutely at odds with the ecumenical message of Jesus Christ. Care about the young not being able to start families first, about those who are in need and can't make their ends meet, and then take care of the rest.
- gjsman-1000 4y ago
  > what Jesus clearly cared about the most, the last, the meek, the poor. You could say it is a matter of perspective, as to the Christian, the unborn child is the most last, the most meek, the most poor, and the most helpless compared to any person including the mother, and thus logically requires precedence. Is the fetus a child or is it not? If it is not, then the mother should take precedence. If it is, in fact, a child, then it must be protected as such. @timbit42 Not true. https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=31863293&goto=threads%3Fid%3Dgjsman-1000%2331863293 https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=31863293&goto=threads%...
  - timbit42 4y ago
    According to the Bible, the fetus is not a child. Look at the Jewish position on abortion for the details.
andsoitis 4y ago
> "Thou shalt not kill," which in the times of Jesus was unanimously interpreted to cover abortion Then how do you explain this: - When the Bible commands abortion: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2018/02/03/bible-commands-abortion-part-1/ https://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2018/02/03/bible-c... - How to perform an abortion, according to the Bible: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/allsetfree/2021/11/how-to-perform-an-abortion-according-to-the-bible/ https://www.patheos.com/blogs/allsetfree/2021/11/how-to-perf...
electrondood 4y ago
Genesis 2:7 - Life begins at first breath. Exodus 21:22-23 - Abortion isn't murder. It's property damage. Numbers 5:11–31 - The biblical version of the "abortion pill", used to test a wife's fidelity.

charonn0 4y ago

Immediately after receiving the 10 commandments, Moses orders the Israelites to slaughter their friends, family, and neighbors who worshiped the golden calf. And God approved.

mcphage 4y ago
And then God send them to genocide their way through the promised land.

0xB31B1B 4y ago

You are incorrect. The bible does not support fetal personhood. The bible clearly gives fetuses a lower moral valence than a living person and discusses that an accident that results in a stillbirth is not equivalent to "killing a person". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism_and_abortion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism_and_abortion

gjsman-1000 4y ago
Modern Judaism differs from Historical Judaism in this respect. For example, the "Rabbinic sources" sounds historical... but then the first person quoted lived in the 1700s.
- 0xB31B1B 4y ago
  I wasn't referencing modern judaism, I was referencing the word of god itself, which clearly does not support any notion of fetal personhood.

haubey 4y ago

>unanimously interpreted to cover abortion Exodus 21:22-23 recounts a story of two men who are fighting and injure a pregnant woman, resulting in her subsequent miscarriage. The verse explains that if the only harm done is the miscarriage, then the perpetrator must pay a fine. However, if the pregnant person is gravely injured, the penalty shall be a life for a life as in homicides. Jesus was Jewish and fetuses aren't considered persons under Jewish law.

gjsman-1000 4y ago
> Jesus was Jewish and fetuses aren't considered persons under Jewish law. A counterargument would be that the Jewish law does not address whether they are persons, but rather focuses on the fine being the solution to the matter. The law also only addresses if the incident should occur by accident (the miscarriage being a side effect), whereas deliberately inducing a miscarriage was not included. EDIT: Adding more information (also due to reply timers): @DangItBobby The verse in question: "When men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no harm follows, the one who hurt her shall be fined, according as the woman’s husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life." A few notes. 1. The law only addresses unintentional injury, and does not address intentional injuries. 2. The law does not specify "injury." It could mean an injury that occurs to the pregnant woman, the unborn child, or both. One way to interpret the passage is that if the woman is caused to have an early delivery, then the penalty is a fine, but any further injury to the child is covered under the lex talionis law of “an eye for an eye.” 3. The law actually calls the fetus a "child," and takes foregranted that the woman "is with child" which pretty clearly shows that the personhood was taken foregranted.
- DangitBobby 4y ago
  > The law also only addresses if the incident should occur by accident (the miscarriage being a side effect), whereas deliberately inducing a miscarriage was not included. Nope, that's covered. In the verse, accidental damage to the human mother was punishable by death.
- 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

qalmakka 4y ago

The old testament also banned eating shrimp and that people working on Saturday should be stoned, so I kind of see lots of cherry picking here. It's also highly ambiguous if the fetus should be considered a human being or property (see Exodus), but that's not the point. The core point was that most of the message and teachings of Jesus were clearly, unambiguously about social justice and charity, and yet modern Christians care way more about Old Testament moral rules than the actual Christian message, what Jesus clearly cared about the most, the last, the meek, the poor. The modern Christian votes for racist ultra-rich that only profess hate towards everyone that's different from them in order to get abortion and gay marriage banned. That's the worst corruption of the Christian message possible, in my opinion, and makes those people phony believers to my eyes. They use their as an indentitarian way to distinguish them from the others, which is absolutely at odds with the ecumenical message of Jesus Christ. Care about the young not being able to start families first, about those who are in need and can't make their ends meet, and then take care of the rest.

gjsman-1000 4y ago
> what Jesus clearly cared about the most, the last, the meek, the poor. You could say it is a matter of perspective, as to the Christian, the unborn child is the most last, the most meek, the most poor, and the most helpless compared to any person including the mother, and thus logically requires precedence. Is the fetus a child or is it not? If it is not, then the mother should take precedence. If it is, in fact, a child, then it must be protected as such. @timbit42 Not true. https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=31863293&goto=threads%3Fid%3Dgjsman-1000%2331863293 https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=31863293&goto=threads%...
- timbit42 4y ago
  According to the Bible, the fetus is not a child. Look at the Jewish position on abortion for the details.

andsoitis 4y ago

> "Thou shalt not kill," which in the times of Jesus was unanimously interpreted to cover abortion Then how do you explain this: - When the Bible commands abortion: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2018/02/03/bible-commands-abortion-part-1/ https://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2018/02/03/bible-c... - How to perform an abortion, according to the Bible: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/allsetfree/2021/11/how-to-perform-an-abortion-according-to-the-bible/ https://www.patheos.com/blogs/allsetfree/2021/11/how-to-perf...

electrondood 4y ago

Genesis 2:7 - Life begins at first breath. Exodus 21:22-23 - Abortion isn't murder. It's property damage. Numbers 5:11–31 - The biblical version of the "abortion pill", used to test a wife's fidelity.