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I have a contrarian view on cryptocurrencies: I don't think the blockchain is the biggest innovation. I think that Bitcoin is. And Bitcoin is more than just a b

by haolez 4y ago

I have a contrarian view on cryptocurrencies: I don't think the blockchain is the biggest innovation. I think that Bitcoin is. And Bitcoin is more than just a blockchain. However, I think blockchains are only useful for a single purpose: digital money. Every other use seems misplaced for me.

bhaak 4y ago
I'm not sure a meme should be "worth" 400 Billion dollars. Or what else could you mean what the "more than just a blockchain" is?
- haolez 4y ago
  The game theory behind it that makes the whole thing work.
  - bhaak 4y ago
    For questionable values of “work”. It doesn’t work as digital money (see the narrative of it being digital gold). And it’s not stable yet. The block rewards are decreasing and we don’t know for sure if it will still work when they are mostly gone (we will find out in a few years though).
lawn 4y ago
I certainly agree that digital money is the use-case, but I don't think Bitcoin is it. Transactions are far too expensive and has too poor privacy for that to be the case.
- randomhodler84 4y ago
  It’s super cheap. I sent $30 to a friend last night via Lightning, it was <1c. They used it to buy drinks. There is no record of the tx on a blockchain - it is reasonably private. It is not as private as monero, zcash — sure, but there is no ongoing record of tx.
  - automatic6131 4y ago
    And broke decentralisation doing it
    - randomhodler84 4y ago
      How so? Why is Lightning centralized? Cos it isn’t. That’s just bcasher lies.
  - Elinvynia 4y ago
    So you used a centralized solution to reduce your transaction costs, giving up on one of the main features of Bitcoin.
    - randomhodler84 4y ago
      You are wrong to say it is a centralized solution. My channels, my peers, c-Lightning and a friends open source wallet. Where is the centralization? Where is the trusted third party? What feature was given up? Sats are sats and they are accepted where sats are taken.
      - lawn 4y ago
        To get a comparable user experience you need to depend on a third-party to manage the channels and liquidity. Otherwise you can't use it on your mobile phone, have problem with finding an available route, having failed payments, having to open new channels and you still have to make regular and expensive Bitcoin transactions when topping up or opening channels.
        jazzyjackson 4y ago
        third-party is not necessarily a harbinger of centralization, as long as there are many third parties to choose from (and you can always setup your own channel if it suits you)
        4y ago
- pclmulqdq 4y ago
  IMO Monero and Zcash were the next attempts at true digital money, and both seemed to work well for that purpose. However, people don't seem to want digital money unless its value is highly volatile, and Zcash and Monero never achieved such volatility. It's ironic, because volatility is the opposite of what you want in a currency.
  - lawn 4y ago
    Doubly funny as people market Bitcoin as a store of value, but in reality it's far too volatile (and too young) for that.
- matheusmoreira 4y ago
  I think Monero is closest to being the perfect cryptocurrency. Complete privacy, fast and cheap transactions, truly decentralized. Now if only we could get people to use it.
  - tromp 4y ago
    Monero just makes different tradeoffs than Bitcoin. Some upsides, but also plenty downsides. [1]. [1] https://phyro.github.io/grinvestigation/why_grin.html https://phyro.github.io/grinvestigation/why_grin.html
baby 4y ago
See “the web PKI 2.0” https://cryptologie.net/article/561/the-web-pki-20/ https://cryptologie.net/article/561/the-web-pki-20/
- haolez 4y ago
  Thanks! Mina is the most interesting cryptocurrency I've seen since Bitcoin. I didn't mention it since I'd look like a shill trying to pump my favorite coin. Disclaimer: I have 0 cryptocurrencies in my portfolio right now. I'm only interested in the technical aspects.
- randomhodler84 4y ago
  David, I am highly concerned about fairly new and poorly understood zkproof systems vs transparent blockchains for long term storage. Monero, Grin, Zcash; have all had their issues. What would be required in your mind for you to trust Mina to accurately and retrievably store your life savings?

by haolez 4y ago

bhaak 4y ago

I'm not sure a meme should be "worth" 400 Billion dollars. Or what else could you mean what the "more than just a blockchain" is?

haolez 4y ago
The game theory behind it that makes the whole thing work.
- bhaak 4y ago
  For questionable values of “work”. It doesn’t work as digital money (see the narrative of it being digital gold). And it’s not stable yet. The block rewards are decreasing and we don’t know for sure if it will still work when they are mostly gone (we will find out in a few years though).

lawn 4y ago

I certainly agree that digital money is the use-case, but I don't think Bitcoin is it. Transactions are far too expensive and has too poor privacy for that to be the case.

randomhodler84 4y ago
It’s super cheap. I sent $30 to a friend last night via Lightning, it was <1c. They used it to buy drinks. There is no record of the tx on a blockchain - it is reasonably private. It is not as private as monero, zcash — sure, but there is no ongoing record of tx.
- automatic6131 4y ago
  And broke decentralisation doing it
  - randomhodler84 4y ago
    How so? Why is Lightning centralized? Cos it isn’t. That’s just bcasher lies.
- Elinvynia 4y ago
  So you used a centralized solution to reduce your transaction costs, giving up on one of the main features of Bitcoin.
  - randomhodler84 4y ago
    You are wrong to say it is a centralized solution. My channels, my peers, c-Lightning and a friends open source wallet. Where is the centralization? Where is the trusted third party? What feature was given up? Sats are sats and they are accepted where sats are taken.
    - lawn 4y ago
      To get a comparable user experience you need to depend on a third-party to manage the channels and liquidity. Otherwise you can't use it on your mobile phone, have problem with finding an available route, having failed payments, having to open new channels and you still have to make regular and expensive Bitcoin transactions when topping up or opening channels.
      - jazzyjackson 4y ago
        third-party is not necessarily a harbinger of centralization, as long as there are many third parties to choose from (and you can always setup your own channel if it suits you)
        4y ago
pclmulqdq 4y ago
IMO Monero and Zcash were the next attempts at true digital money, and both seemed to work well for that purpose. However, people don't seem to want digital money unless its value is highly volatile, and Zcash and Monero never achieved such volatility. It's ironic, because volatility is the opposite of what you want in a currency.
- lawn 4y ago
  Doubly funny as people market Bitcoin as a store of value, but in reality it's far too volatile (and too young) for that.
matheusmoreira 4y ago
I think Monero is closest to being the perfect cryptocurrency. Complete privacy, fast and cheap transactions, truly decentralized. Now if only we could get people to use it.
- tromp 4y ago
  Monero just makes different tradeoffs than Bitcoin. Some upsides, but also plenty downsides. [1]. [1] https://phyro.github.io/grinvestigation/why_grin.html https://phyro.github.io/grinvestigation/why_grin.html

baby 4y ago

See “the web PKI 2.0” https://cryptologie.net/article/561/the-web-pki-20/ https://cryptologie.net/article/561/the-web-pki-20/

haolez 4y ago
Thanks! Mina is the most interesting cryptocurrency I've seen since Bitcoin. I didn't mention it since I'd look like a shill trying to pump my favorite coin. Disclaimer: I have 0 cryptocurrencies in my portfolio right now. I'm only interested in the technical aspects.
randomhodler84 4y ago
David, I am highly concerned about fairly new and poorly understood zkproof systems vs transparent blockchains for long term storage. Monero, Grin, Zcash; have all had their issues. What would be required in your mind for you to trust Mina to accurately and retrievably store your life savings?