5 ms·

If the US does take him from Sweden, then it will only serve as huge negative PR against them, and call into question the motives of the UK courts. The backlash

If the US does take him from Sweden, then it will only serve as huge negative PR against them, and call into question the motives of the UK courts. The backlash could be huge.

rms 15y ago
I think the goals of the USA/CIA will be sufficiently served by him being sentenced to jail in Sweden for a while.
- rdtsc 15y ago
  Their basic goal is to make an example out of him. Since this will obviously not put the cat back in the bag, it is just about setting an example and revenge. They are doing this to Manning as well. But it is harder to get a hold of Assange directly but they can use Sweden. Swedes, are surprisingly friendly with US govt (see jka's post above).
mike-cardwell 15y ago
This confuses me. Are the Swedes more likely to extradite people to the US than the UK are? If not, I don't understand your point... I'm a Brit, and I was under the impression that our government bends over and gives the US anyone they want, whereas the Swedes give a shit about peoples rights... I'd have thought Assange is safer from the US in Sweden than he was in the UK. Plus he'll find it a lot easier to travel to different countries if he's on mainland Europe (assuming he's not imprisoned for this rape stuff)
- jka 15y ago
  It's difficult to tell - the U.K. courts until recently had seemed (following heavy lawyering from Assange) to be allowing him to stay in the country under curfew, but this recent ruling seems to overturn that. There was a bit of an outcry last year when it turned out that the U.S. had been performing surveillance around their embassies in Norway, and I remember reading some suggestions at the time that there was actually Norwegian co-operation to some extent - but I'd have to dig back in detail to find the reports. There was also an admission around the same time that similar monitoring had been taking place in Sweden. And finally, one of the Swedish prosecutors raised very early on the possibility of extraditing Assange to the U.S. following prosecution. Here are a few reading references to back these up - as mentioned in this thread, it's far from clear without knowing the full details, but here are some pieces to fill out the context: * Swedish charges leaked http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/02/wikileaks-sweden/ http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/02/wikileaks-sweden/ * U.S. Surveillance in Norway http://www.newsinenglish.no/2010/11/04/officials-howling-over-us-embassys-secret-surveillance-in-norway/ http://www.newsinenglish.no/2010/11/04/officials-howling-ove... * Similar surveillance admission in Sweden http://www.thelocal.se/30062/20101106/# http://www.thelocal.se/30062/20101106/# * Prosecutor's suggestions regarding extradition from Sweden to U.S. http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/12/14/swedish-prosecutor-raises-possible-extradition-of-wikileaks-founder-to-u-s/ http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/12/14/swedish-prosecut...
  - jeza 15y ago
    Something else worth noting which the last url suggests is that Sweden can't just extradite him to the US at their own will. It would also have to be approved by Britain.
- arethuza 15y ago
  "our government bends over and gives the US anyone they want" I'm pretty sure the UK doesn't hand over people who may face the death penalty - although it wouldn't surprise me if there was an exclusion to this sensible rule for the US. http://www.cps.gov.uk/news/fact_sheets/extradition/ http://www.cps.gov.uk/news/fact_sheets/extradition/
  - jeza 15y ago
    I would doubt there is any exception to this policy for the US. See also: http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/global-issues/human-rights/justice-security/death-penalty/ http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/global-issues/human-rights/justice-...
- chalst 15y ago
  Assange's camp put out an argument that it was technically much harder to extradite from the UK than Sweden, for both legal and diplomatic reasons. http://www.swedenversusassange.com/US-Extradition.html http://www.swedenversusassange.com/US-Extradition.html
- gillianseed 15y ago
  -"whereas the Swedes give a shit about peoples rights..." You must be thinking about the days when we had guys like Olof Palme (who incidentally got shot). Nowadays we are being run by a right-wing coalition dominated by 'Moderaterna', which is the only political party in Sweden refusing to declare from where they get their campaign money. Just recently they also tried to take credit for being part of the movement for equal vote and against apartheid, when in reality they were against womens right to vote and also was the only party who did not want sanctions against apartheid, hilarious. Not that our government being right-wing has anything to do with Assange, no matter what government we'd have sitting today (left,right) they would bend to US pressure just as quickly.
illumen 15y ago
The Swedish people want his blood too, as does the Swedish Prime Minister. He is going to go into a secret trial, and possibly just disappear. Also the Australian Prime minister wants him locked up, so I wouldn't be surprised they don't do something. It's likely they will help the US take him away somewhere nasty rather than do it themselves though. When you have multiple world leaders going after you, there's not much you can do. Basically Julian is fucked.
- Steer 15y ago
  Don't know where you are from, but since I am from Sweden and live in Sweden I can assure you that what you are writing is simply not true. There isn't a concensus on Assange's possible guilt in this case, opinions are divided (while most people don't care about this at all of course). Can you give an example of any previous cases that has gone to a "secret trial" here in Sweden?
  - illumen 15y ago
    "Clare Montgomery QC, for the Swedish authorities, said evidence from a trial would be heard in private but the arguments would be made in public." That is a secret trial. The Swedish Prime Minister has declared the man guilty, as well major Swedish news sources have declared his guilt. Those are the best evidence I can give - elected members, and the press. I can only give anecdotal evidence of the Swedish people accusing him of being a misogynist and a rapist - without hearing evidence. There is even an element of racism, as he is an Australia, so obviously he must have done it. My experience based on friends, and friends of friends in Sweden is that many of them think he is guilty. There have been many instances of secret trials in Sweden. Not including the old Swedish Nazi trials of course, but more recently. See the quote from the prosecuting QC as evidence that the trial will not be public. The Swedish Parliament make the laws, and the Prime Minister has proclaimed the man guilty. Do you not see the lack of justice there?
    - piers 15y ago
      And can you link to reliable sources with that stuff? And there's a different between a rape trial being held in private (see fun2have's post here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3186245 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3186245) and some secret committee. Personally, I think there are too many contradictions (like the fact that the stories have changed) for this to be something other than politically motivated. But we shall see.
objclxt 15y ago
The motives of the UK courts aren't really in question, whatever happens. No lawyers with any knowledge of EU law actually expected his appeal to succeed. I suspect a lot of people here will rush to call some kind of politically motivated conspiracy. I suspect they don't really understand how the UK legal system works. If you actually read the judgment [0], you'll see it's pretty iron-clad. Very few people in the field thought this appeal was going to succeed. The simple fact is that the UK has obligations to Europe, including turning over those accused of committing crimes in other member states. It is extremely hard to get out of those obligations. I cannot overstate just how detailed the judgement is. There is very little room for maneuverer by Assange, and his legal defence during the appeal was pretty poor. His entire defence is ripped apart. People seem to be under the mistaken impression it is somehow up to the English courts to determine whether Assange is guilty or not. It isn't. It's up to the English courts to determine whether the warrant for his arrest was issued properly, and whether it meets the relevant dual-criminality standards. Which it was, and does, on every level. The issue of whether Assange is at risk of extradition to the US from Sweden is not relevant to this case, in any way, shape, or form. [0] http://images.newstatesman.com/RC.pdf http://images.newstatesman.com/RC.pdf

If the US does take him from Sweden, then it will only serve as huge negative PR against them, and call into question the motives of the UK courts. The backlash could be huge.

rms 15y ago

I think the goals of the USA/CIA will be sufficiently served by him being sentenced to jail in Sweden for a while.

rdtsc 15y ago
Their basic goal is to make an example out of him. Since this will obviously not put the cat back in the bag, it is just about setting an example and revenge. They are doing this to Manning as well. But it is harder to get a hold of Assange directly but they can use Sweden. Swedes, are surprisingly friendly with US govt (see jka's post above).

mike-cardwell 15y ago

This confuses me. Are the Swedes more likely to extradite people to the US than the UK are? If not, I don't understand your point... I'm a Brit, and I was under the impression that our government bends over and gives the US anyone they want, whereas the Swedes give a shit about peoples rights... I'd have thought Assange is safer from the US in Sweden than he was in the UK. Plus he'll find it a lot easier to travel to different countries if he's on mainland Europe (assuming he's not imprisoned for this rape stuff)

jka 15y ago
It's difficult to tell - the U.K. courts until recently had seemed (following heavy lawyering from Assange) to be allowing him to stay in the country under curfew, but this recent ruling seems to overturn that. There was a bit of an outcry last year when it turned out that the U.S. had been performing surveillance around their embassies in Norway, and I remember reading some suggestions at the time that there was actually Norwegian co-operation to some extent - but I'd have to dig back in detail to find the reports. There was also an admission around the same time that similar monitoring had been taking place in Sweden. And finally, one of the Swedish prosecutors raised very early on the possibility of extraditing Assange to the U.S. following prosecution. Here are a few reading references to back these up - as mentioned in this thread, it's far from clear without knowing the full details, but here are some pieces to fill out the context: * Swedish charges leaked http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/02/wikileaks-sweden/ http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/02/wikileaks-sweden/ * U.S. Surveillance in Norway http://www.newsinenglish.no/2010/11/04/officials-howling-over-us-embassys-secret-surveillance-in-norway/ http://www.newsinenglish.no/2010/11/04/officials-howling-ove... * Similar surveillance admission in Sweden http://www.thelocal.se/30062/20101106/# http://www.thelocal.se/30062/20101106/# * Prosecutor's suggestions regarding extradition from Sweden to U.S. http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/12/14/swedish-prosecutor-raises-possible-extradition-of-wikileaks-founder-to-u-s/ http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/12/14/swedish-prosecut...
- jeza 15y ago
  Something else worth noting which the last url suggests is that Sweden can't just extradite him to the US at their own will. It would also have to be approved by Britain.
arethuza 15y ago
"our government bends over and gives the US anyone they want" I'm pretty sure the UK doesn't hand over people who may face the death penalty - although it wouldn't surprise me if there was an exclusion to this sensible rule for the US. http://www.cps.gov.uk/news/fact_sheets/extradition/ http://www.cps.gov.uk/news/fact_sheets/extradition/
- jeza 15y ago
  I would doubt there is any exception to this policy for the US. See also: http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/global-issues/human-rights/justice-security/death-penalty/ http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/global-issues/human-rights/justice-...
chalst 15y ago
Assange's camp put out an argument that it was technically much harder to extradite from the UK than Sweden, for both legal and diplomatic reasons. http://www.swedenversusassange.com/US-Extradition.html http://www.swedenversusassange.com/US-Extradition.html
gillianseed 15y ago
-"whereas the Swedes give a shit about peoples rights..." You must be thinking about the days when we had guys like Olof Palme (who incidentally got shot). Nowadays we are being run by a right-wing coalition dominated by 'Moderaterna', which is the only political party in Sweden refusing to declare from where they get their campaign money. Just recently they also tried to take credit for being part of the movement for equal vote and against apartheid, when in reality they were against womens right to vote and also was the only party who did not want sanctions against apartheid, hilarious. Not that our government being right-wing has anything to do with Assange, no matter what government we'd have sitting today (left,right) they would bend to US pressure just as quickly.

illumen 15y ago

The Swedish people want his blood too, as does the Swedish Prime Minister. He is going to go into a secret trial, and possibly just disappear. Also the Australian Prime minister wants him locked up, so I wouldn't be surprised they don't do something. It's likely they will help the US take him away somewhere nasty rather than do it themselves though. When you have multiple world leaders going after you, there's not much you can do. Basically Julian is fucked.

Steer 15y ago
Don't know where you are from, but since I am from Sweden and live in Sweden I can assure you that what you are writing is simply not true. There isn't a concensus on Assange's possible guilt in this case, opinions are divided (while most people don't care about this at all of course). Can you give an example of any previous cases that has gone to a "secret trial" here in Sweden?
- illumen 15y ago
  "Clare Montgomery QC, for the Swedish authorities, said evidence from a trial would be heard in private but the arguments would be made in public." That is a secret trial. The Swedish Prime Minister has declared the man guilty, as well major Swedish news sources have declared his guilt. Those are the best evidence I can give - elected members, and the press. I can only give anecdotal evidence of the Swedish people accusing him of being a misogynist and a rapist - without hearing evidence. There is even an element of racism, as he is an Australia, so obviously he must have done it. My experience based on friends, and friends of friends in Sweden is that many of them think he is guilty. There have been many instances of secret trials in Sweden. Not including the old Swedish Nazi trials of course, but more recently. See the quote from the prosecuting QC as evidence that the trial will not be public. The Swedish Parliament make the laws, and the Prime Minister has proclaimed the man guilty. Do you not see the lack of justice there?
  - piers 15y ago
    And can you link to reliable sources with that stuff? And there's a different between a rape trial being held in private (see fun2have's post here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3186245 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3186245) and some secret committee. Personally, I think there are too many contradictions (like the fact that the stories have changed) for this to be something other than politically motivated. But we shall see.

objclxt 15y ago

The motives of the UK courts aren't really in question, whatever happens. No lawyers with any knowledge of EU law actually expected his appeal to succeed. I suspect a lot of people here will rush to call some kind of politically motivated conspiracy. I suspect they don't really understand how the UK legal system works. If you actually read the judgment [0], you'll see it's pretty iron-clad. Very few people in the field thought this appeal was going to succeed. The simple fact is that the UK has obligations to Europe, including turning over those accused of committing crimes in other member states. It is extremely hard to get out of those obligations. I cannot overstate just how detailed the judgement is. There is very little room for maneuverer by Assange, and his legal defence during the appeal was pretty poor. His entire defence is ripped apart. People seem to be under the mistaken impression it is somehow up to the English courts to determine whether Assange is guilty or not. It isn't. It's up to the English courts to determine whether the warrant for his arrest was issued properly, and whether it meets the relevant dual-criminality standards. Which it was, and does, on every level. The issue of whether Assange is at risk of extradition to the US from Sweden is not relevant to this case, in any way, shape, or form. [0] http://images.newstatesman.com/RC.pdf http://images.newstatesman.com/RC.pdf