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You're never going to have a currency that can operate outside of black markets avoiding regulation. Every connection to any legal entity is going to be regula

You're never going to have a currency that can operate outside of black markets avoiding regulation. Every connection to any legal entity is going to be regulated, full stop. There is no promise crypto can make to get around this.

lebed2045 4y ago
I think you forgot there’s whole planet with billions of people beyond the USA borders. Something what doesn’t follow every single us regulation != black market.
- colechristensen 4y ago
  For better or worse, US law extends to anything that touches our financial network. Even a whiff of a connection to a US financial institution can get you prosecuted by the US. The Bank of Somewhereelse really wants to be able to continue doing business with the Bank of America, so they accept regulation.
  - mistrial9 4y ago
    please go to Dubai and learn Arabic edit or Farsi or Mandarin, if they confide in you, report back on the universality of the US banks.. secondly, I send you a beaming picture of BRICS leaders this week to reinforce the "fish sees no water" nature of your statement. American here
    - colechristensen 4y ago
      "A former executive of collapsed Dubai private equity firm Abraaj Capital Ltd on Friday pleaded guilty to U.S. fraud and conspiracy charges" https://www.reuters.com/article/us-abraaj-usa-crime/former-abraaj-executive-pleads-guilty-to-u-s-charges-idUSKCN1TT2OM https://www.reuters.com/article/us-abraaj-usa-crime/former-a... "A Dubai resident who flaunted his extravagant lifestyle on social media has arrived in the United States to face criminal charges alleging he conspired to launder hundreds of millions of dollars from business email compromise (BEC) frauds and other scams, including schemes targeting a U.S. law firm, a foreign bank and an English Premier League soccer club." https://www.justice.gov/usao-cdca/pr/nigerian-national-brought-us-face-charges-conspiring-launder-hundreds-millions-dollars https://www.justice.gov/usao-cdca/pr/nigerian-national-broug... "United States and United Arab Emirates Sign Bilateral Agreement Enhancing Law Enforcement Cooperation" https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/united-states-and-united-arab-emirates-sign-bilateral-agreement-enhancing-law-enforcement https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/united-states-and-united-arab... 1 minute of googling
    - stackedinserter 4y ago
      What are you talking about, the US successfully imposed FATCA on nearly every bank institution on the planet, and none of them or their government even tried to push back.
      - lokedhs 4y ago
        That why a lot of people bankside outside the US will refuse to accept US customers. The reporting obligation is only applicable if they have US customers.
- jermaustin1 4y ago
  Almost every nation allows the US to spy on their citizens' bank accounts. Its part of allowing them to bank with the US.
  - aaaaaaaaata 4y ago
    What they can see and dislike may still be legal in the jurisdiction it's happening in.
headsoup 4y ago
Or avoid being scammed, becoming scams or being wholly manipulated. I don't know how people think cryptocurrency will just 'work itself out' as some decentralised system with no oversight somehow free of corruption and illegality... that holds a steady, useful value within regulated and legal markets.
once_inc 4y ago
Regulated, perhaps. But regulation shouldn't entail handing vast amounts of personal details, and the ability of intermediates to be able to track you fully afterwards. I want to be able to buy stuff without centralized entities following me everywhere.
- ohgodplsno 4y ago
  Use cash. The moment you go through a computer, you're already screwed.
  - mgamache 4y ago
    Cash's days are numbered. It won't be a thing in 15 years.
    - thingification 4y ago
      This kind of thing always depends entirely on what ideas people end up believing, and the details of the problem-situation when that comes about. I know: "obviously" people will never take the threat of tyranny and mass surveillance seriously. Just like obviously women couldn't possibly get the vote from a position of not having the vote in the first place with which to wield power. It was obvious! But it wasn't true.
- colechristensen 4y ago
  > I want to be able to buy stuff without centralized entities following me everywhere. Use cash.
  - mgamache 4y ago
    Cash is close to being outlawed. Once CBDCs are a thing cash will be phased out. They'll claim paper is too expensive or helps criminals or terrorists or whatever.
    - deleted 4y ago
ravenstine 4y ago
The liberal exchange of currency (arguably money in this case) is not a "black market." It's only a black market in the context that a government thinks it has the right to regulate private transactions to the extent that the physical address of a recipient needs to be on record. Is it a black market when I pay the neighbor kid to mow my lawn and don't report their address? Nonsense.
- epwr 4y ago
  > Is it black market when I pay the neighbor kid to mow my lawn and don't report their address? Nonsense. No, but it is illegal for financial institutions (and many industries) to provide services without knowing who they are serving. Not sure how anyone is surprised that KYC requirements are coming for crypto..
  - throwaway5959 4y ago
    Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by ignorance.
  - burnished 4y ago
    Probably because banking stuff is cryptic and KYC sounds like something that is dredged in flour and 21 seasonings before being fried crisp instead of a very real obligation.
- wrycoder 4y ago
  In the US, if you pay him over $650 a year, you have to file a 1099 with the IRS.
  - criddell 4y ago
    I just googled 1099 and this is what I found: > If you made a payment during the calendar year as a small business or self-employed (individual), you are most likely required to file an information return to the IRS. I don’t think that covers a homeowner paying for services. I’ve paid an appliance repair person more than that this year. I’m thinking about updating my home’s HVAC and that’s going to be way more than that. I hired a plumber earlier this year and spent about that. None of these things require a 1099 to be filed and I don’t wee why landscaping would be different.

lebed2045 4y ago

I think you forgot there’s whole planet with billions of people beyond the USA borders. Something what doesn’t follow every single us regulation != black market.

colechristensen 4y ago
For better or worse, US law extends to anything that touches our financial network. Even a whiff of a connection to a US financial institution can get you prosecuted by the US. The Bank of Somewhereelse really wants to be able to continue doing business with the Bank of America, so they accept regulation.
- mistrial9 4y ago
  please go to Dubai and learn Arabic edit or Farsi or Mandarin, if they confide in you, report back on the universality of the US banks.. secondly, I send you a beaming picture of BRICS leaders this week to reinforce the "fish sees no water" nature of your statement. American here
  - colechristensen 4y ago
    "A former executive of collapsed Dubai private equity firm Abraaj Capital Ltd on Friday pleaded guilty to U.S. fraud and conspiracy charges" https://www.reuters.com/article/us-abraaj-usa-crime/former-abraaj-executive-pleads-guilty-to-u-s-charges-idUSKCN1TT2OM https://www.reuters.com/article/us-abraaj-usa-crime/former-a... "A Dubai resident who flaunted his extravagant lifestyle on social media has arrived in the United States to face criminal charges alleging he conspired to launder hundreds of millions of dollars from business email compromise (BEC) frauds and other scams, including schemes targeting a U.S. law firm, a foreign bank and an English Premier League soccer club." https://www.justice.gov/usao-cdca/pr/nigerian-national-brought-us-face-charges-conspiring-launder-hundreds-millions-dollars https://www.justice.gov/usao-cdca/pr/nigerian-national-broug... "United States and United Arab Emirates Sign Bilateral Agreement Enhancing Law Enforcement Cooperation" https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/united-states-and-united-arab-emirates-sign-bilateral-agreement-enhancing-law-enforcement https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/united-states-and-united-arab... 1 minute of googling
  - stackedinserter 4y ago
    What are you talking about, the US successfully imposed FATCA on nearly every bank institution on the planet, and none of them or their government even tried to push back.
    - lokedhs 4y ago
      That why a lot of people bankside outside the US will refuse to accept US customers. The reporting obligation is only applicable if they have US customers.
jermaustin1 4y ago
Almost every nation allows the US to spy on their citizens' bank accounts. Its part of allowing them to bank with the US.
- aaaaaaaaata 4y ago
  What they can see and dislike may still be legal in the jurisdiction it's happening in.

headsoup 4y ago

Or avoid being scammed, becoming scams or being wholly manipulated. I don't know how people think cryptocurrency will just 'work itself out' as some decentralised system with no oversight somehow free of corruption and illegality... that holds a steady, useful value within regulated and legal markets.

once_inc 4y ago

Regulated, perhaps. But regulation shouldn't entail handing vast amounts of personal details, and the ability of intermediates to be able to track you fully afterwards. I want to be able to buy stuff without centralized entities following me everywhere.

ohgodplsno 4y ago
Use cash. The moment you go through a computer, you're already screwed.
- mgamache 4y ago
  Cash's days are numbered. It won't be a thing in 15 years.
  - thingification 4y ago
    This kind of thing always depends entirely on what ideas people end up believing, and the details of the problem-situation when that comes about. I know: "obviously" people will never take the threat of tyranny and mass surveillance seriously. Just like obviously women couldn't possibly get the vote from a position of not having the vote in the first place with which to wield power. It was obvious! But it wasn't true.
colechristensen 4y ago
> I want to be able to buy stuff without centralized entities following me everywhere. Use cash.
- mgamache 4y ago
  Cash is close to being outlawed. Once CBDCs are a thing cash will be phased out. They'll claim paper is too expensive or helps criminals or terrorists or whatever.
  - deleted 4y ago

ravenstine 4y ago

The liberal exchange of currency (arguably money in this case) is not a "black market." It's only a black market in the context that a government thinks it has the right to regulate private transactions to the extent that the physical address of a recipient needs to be on record. Is it a black market when I pay the neighbor kid to mow my lawn and don't report their address? Nonsense.

epwr 4y ago
> Is it black market when I pay the neighbor kid to mow my lawn and don't report their address? Nonsense. No, but it is illegal for financial institutions (and many industries) to provide services without knowing who they are serving. Not sure how anyone is surprised that KYC requirements are coming for crypto..
- throwaway5959 4y ago
  Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by ignorance.
- burnished 4y ago
  Probably because banking stuff is cryptic and KYC sounds like something that is dredged in flour and 21 seasonings before being fried crisp instead of a very real obligation.
wrycoder 4y ago
In the US, if you pay him over $650 a year, you have to file a 1099 with the IRS.
- criddell 4y ago
  I just googled 1099 and this is what I found: > If you made a payment during the calendar year as a small business or self-employed (individual), you are most likely required to file an information return to the IRS. I don’t think that covers a homeowner paying for services. I’ve paid an appliance repair person more than that this year. I’m thinking about updating my home’s HVAC and that’s going to be way more than that. I hired a plumber earlier this year and spent about that. None of these things require a 1099 to be filed and I don’t wee why landscaping would be different.