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Seems like you have the exact opposite take here that I do. Rather than allowing surveillance of kids because we are being surveilled by other companies, maybe

Seems like you have the exact opposite take here that I do. Rather than allowing surveillance of kids because we are being surveilled by other companies, maybe make that surveillance harder too? Not to mention that, at least theoretically, you have a choice to interact with the other people surveilling you. Kids have no choice and are forced to go to school and would be under forced surveillance and data harvesting.

dr_dshiv 4y ago
I do have a different take. My experience comes from helping edtech companies with data science. So, I get to see many potentially good things that edtech companies don’t do. I personally think it is ethically imperative to analyze patterns of student performance and motivation within learning software, with the goal of system/software improvement. Why? Because enhancing the efficacy of education at scale is really, really valuable—and I’m not speaking from a finance perspective. In fact, there is very little money to be made by making online education more effective. I don’t agree that using data for continuous product improvement should be called “forced surveillance and data harvesting.” I know there is a real issue with advergaming and “user as product.” This is not what I’m referring to. I’m asking for more nuance.
- PeterisP 4y ago
  You're free to do whatever research on children's behavior after you get informed opt-in non-coerced consent from the legal representatives of all the participants of the study and approval from a supervising IRB (Institutional Review Board)/REC (Research Ethics Committee), otherwise it should be called "forced surveillance and data harvesting". This is not a new discussion, the research community has long ago established a near-consensus about what are the appropriate ethical boundaries, permissible tradeoffs, and non-negotiable safeguards when studying human subjects, and this goes waaaaay beyond that.
  - dr_dshiv 4y ago
    Please don’t do the extreme outrage machine. Please listen. Those consensual agreements you speak of specifically include the use of research to support normal educational practices. That’s why conducting research on normal educational practices is one of the few exceptions to the requirements for informed consent in research. That’s because it was understood that there is an ethical trade off —gathering informed consent from kids in education settings is so difficult that they knew requiring consent would prevent the research from occurring. That’s what I’m saying —rather than “black and white” thinking that collecting data from kids is evil, consider the real societal losses from banning research to improve educational practices— including what is now normal online educational practices. This needs nuance. For more information: https://research.virginia.edu/irb-sbs/normal-educational-practice https://research.virginia.edu/irb-sbs/normal-educational-pra...
    - noasaservice 4y ago
      So what you're saying is that an IRB is just 'too onerous' and that getting informed consent (from the children or their guardians) is just too hard? And then you have the audacity to tell us to "don’t do the extreme outrage machine"? Just wow.
      - workingon 4y ago
        Yeah with no concerns about the limitations or monetization of the data that the edtech companies are collecting. Data on the habits of children has to be some of the most valuable data in the data-for-sale corporate/black markets.
      - dr_dshiv 4y ago
        You should have read the link or listened to what I wrote. Yes. You are contributing to the outrage machine.
      - dr_dshiv 4y ago
        Not that IRB is too onerous. We still get IRB approval. But approval can come with an exemption from informed consent when it involves research on normal educational practices.
  - mlyle 4y ago
    > This is not a new discussion, the research community has long ago established a near-consensus about what are the appropriate ethical boundaries, permissible tradeoffs, and non-negotiable safeguards when studying human subjects, and this goes waaaaay beyond that. Unfortunately, our definitions are extraordinarily broad and technically almost anything is human research by the letter of the definition. In practice, we don't call everything that interacts with data about people "human experimentation", but figuring out the exact line is very hard. E.g. I am a teacher. I do things differently from year to year. I do my best to gather the best metrics on this time series data that I can in order to inform my choices on what I consider best practices. Do I need to get an IRB involved? My institution doesn't have an IRB. I really wish there were high quality controlled experiments in education that I could rely upon. But the vast majority of the educational research is crap. Think about, say, Khan Academy. I have a hard time imagining a world where interacting with millions of kids on a protocol is OK, but the second we take some basic metrics to try and figure out how well it works, it's bad. I'd arguably ethically one needs to perform a certain basic level of monitoring and optimization of any intervention.
- AlexandrB 4y ago
  > I know there is a real issue with advergaming and “user as product.” This is not what I’m referring to. I’m asking for more nuance. Intent doesn't matter unless the data collection includes legally binding provisions to delete all collected data in the case of bankruptcy or acquisition. Otherwise this is just a pile of user data waiting to be scooped up by private equity and sold to third parties. > In fact, there is very little money to be made by making online education more effective. Right. So when the ed-tech company gets into financial trouble the data becomes an asset to be sold.
  - dr_dshiv 4y ago
    I hear you. Good idea. I think the core idea that you can’t use data to support marketing or sales is right. And, I’d support a blanket ban on selling the data, except when you are selling the company in a manner that continues the educational purposes.
- anilgulecha 4y ago
  I would like to reach out and understand a bit more on the focus on learning outcome. What's a good way to reach you?

dr_dshiv 4y ago

I do have a different take. My experience comes from helping edtech companies with data science. So, I get to see many potentially good things that edtech companies don’t do. I personally think it is ethically imperative to analyze patterns of student performance and motivation within learning software, with the goal of system/software improvement. Why? Because enhancing the efficacy of education at scale is really, really valuable—and I’m not speaking from a finance perspective. In fact, there is very little money to be made by making online education more effective. I don’t agree that using data for continuous product improvement should be called “forced surveillance and data harvesting.” I know there is a real issue with advergaming and “user as product.” This is not what I’m referring to. I’m asking for more nuance.

PeterisP 4y ago
You're free to do whatever research on children's behavior after you get informed opt-in non-coerced consent from the legal representatives of all the participants of the study and approval from a supervising IRB (Institutional Review Board)/REC (Research Ethics Committee), otherwise it should be called "forced surveillance and data harvesting". This is not a new discussion, the research community has long ago established a near-consensus about what are the appropriate ethical boundaries, permissible tradeoffs, and non-negotiable safeguards when studying human subjects, and this goes waaaaay beyond that.
- dr_dshiv 4y ago
  Please don’t do the extreme outrage machine. Please listen. Those consensual agreements you speak of specifically include the use of research to support normal educational practices. That’s why conducting research on normal educational practices is one of the few exceptions to the requirements for informed consent in research. That’s because it was understood that there is an ethical trade off —gathering informed consent from kids in education settings is so difficult that they knew requiring consent would prevent the research from occurring. That’s what I’m saying —rather than “black and white” thinking that collecting data from kids is evil, consider the real societal losses from banning research to improve educational practices— including what is now normal online educational practices. This needs nuance. For more information: https://research.virginia.edu/irb-sbs/normal-educational-practice https://research.virginia.edu/irb-sbs/normal-educational-pra...
  - noasaservice 4y ago
    So what you're saying is that an IRB is just 'too onerous' and that getting informed consent (from the children or their guardians) is just too hard? And then you have the audacity to tell us to "don’t do the extreme outrage machine"? Just wow.
    - workingon 4y ago
      Yeah with no concerns about the limitations or monetization of the data that the edtech companies are collecting. Data on the habits of children has to be some of the most valuable data in the data-for-sale corporate/black markets.
    - dr_dshiv 4y ago
      You should have read the link or listened to what I wrote. Yes. You are contributing to the outrage machine.
    - dr_dshiv 4y ago
      Not that IRB is too onerous. We still get IRB approval. But approval can come with an exemption from informed consent when it involves research on normal educational practices.
- mlyle 4y ago
  > This is not a new discussion, the research community has long ago established a near-consensus about what are the appropriate ethical boundaries, permissible tradeoffs, and non-negotiable safeguards when studying human subjects, and this goes waaaaay beyond that. Unfortunately, our definitions are extraordinarily broad and technically almost anything is human research by the letter of the definition. In practice, we don't call everything that interacts with data about people "human experimentation", but figuring out the exact line is very hard. E.g. I am a teacher. I do things differently from year to year. I do my best to gather the best metrics on this time series data that I can in order to inform my choices on what I consider best practices. Do I need to get an IRB involved? My institution doesn't have an IRB. I really wish there were high quality controlled experiments in education that I could rely upon. But the vast majority of the educational research is crap. Think about, say, Khan Academy. I have a hard time imagining a world where interacting with millions of kids on a protocol is OK, but the second we take some basic metrics to try and figure out how well it works, it's bad. I'd arguably ethically one needs to perform a certain basic level of monitoring and optimization of any intervention.
AlexandrB 4y ago
> I know there is a real issue with advergaming and “user as product.” This is not what I’m referring to. I’m asking for more nuance. Intent doesn't matter unless the data collection includes legally binding provisions to delete all collected data in the case of bankruptcy or acquisition. Otherwise this is just a pile of user data waiting to be scooped up by private equity and sold to third parties. > In fact, there is very little money to be made by making online education more effective. Right. So when the ed-tech company gets into financial trouble the data becomes an asset to be sold.
- dr_dshiv 4y ago
  I hear you. Good idea. I think the core idea that you can’t use data to support marketing or sales is right. And, I’d support a blanket ban on selling the data, except when you are selling the company in a manner that continues the educational purposes.
anilgulecha 4y ago
I would like to reach out and understand a bit more on the focus on learning outcome. What's a good way to reach you?