3 ms·

As an "engineer" with the corresponding university degree, I am absolutely against software engineering being a protected title, for several reasons: - We are

As an "engineer" with the corresponding university degree, I am absolutely against software engineering being a protected title, for several reasons: - We are nowhere close to a set of widely agreed required, specific practices for a software engineering project. "Signing a project" is meaningless without those specific practices. - Even if we had those practices, this world changes so fast that they would need to be updated frequently and get people to examine themselves again. - There's no test for the characteristics underlying components being used. If I'm building a bridge, I can specify certain characteristics for the materials and the procedures, those things can be tested during/after construction and if something fails, we can try and check what failed and pinpoint responsibility (was it a bad procedure, a bad implementation or a bad material?). That's utterly impossible with software. A program crashes or has a bug, and whose fault is it? Nobody will be signing any project and assuming the responsibility it comes with when there's no reliable way to pinpoint who's responsible for a failure. - There isn't even a specific set of skills for an engineer that we all agree on. Yes, you might say "know programming languages" or "testing" or "project management", but what does actually mean? Do you need to know Agile to be a software engineer? Or assembly? Or A/B testing? And finally and the most important thing for me: the amount of knowledge you get from a degree is just a small, often antiquated, part of what's actually software engineering in practice. As someone with an actual software engineering degree, I do not think that the degree is necessary for someone to be a great software engineer. Most of the important knowledge will be learned on the job and on various Internet resources anyways. In my opinion, making SWE a protected title will, at best, do nothing. At worst it will put good engineers without a title out of a job, for no actual change in the quality of the software.

pjmlp 4y ago
High integrity computing has proven record of what those practices should be. As for the rest of your arguments, let me rephrase it, And finally and the most important thing for me: the amount of knowledge you get from a degree is just a small, often antiquated, part of what's actually medicine in practice. As someone with an actual medicine degree, I do not think that the degree is necessary for someone to be a great doctor. Most of the important knowledge will be learned on internships and on various yearly conferences anyways. In my opinion, making a doctor a protected title will, at best, do nothing. At worst it will put good doctors without a title out of a job, for no actual change in the quality of the treatments being applied.
- gjulianm 4y ago
  > High integrity computing has proven record of what those practices should be. And high integrity computing is applied only on certain projects with limited scope because outside of that it's not viable. I'd like to see high integrity computing applied to a web app. > As for the rest of your arguments, let me rephrase it, You might rephrase it as much as you want, it does not make it an apt comparison nor an actual argument. Funnily enough, my SO is a doctor so I see how different our education and work is. The set of base knowledge they get in the degree is not small nor antiquated: there's nobody releasing a new human body every other year, but in SWE we have new operating systems and new execution environments constantly. The set of tools doctors use is fairly constant and consistent between hospitals, in SWE two companies might have entirely different processes, tools and code, and still be functional. And while yes, doctors need to learn new things constantly and there's quite a lot to learn on internships (which, by the way, are different from SWE internships, as internships in medicine is where doctors get their specialization education), from what I've seen I guarantee you there's practically no way one could be a good doctor without having most of the knowledge they learn in the degree and the specialization years.
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    High integrity computing is still not widespread enough, because unfortunely lawsuits and liability procedures aren't yet common, but they eventually will. We only need a few more media star exploits landing across social media for goverments to finally act upon it. That web app would have a process just like anything else. It would be more expensive? Certainly, yet the food joint down the corner also needs to oblige to safety regulations if it doesn't want to be closed down by health inspection, and yet they manage. Hospitals have workflow and treatment guidelines for a reason, they aren't the same process in every single one, not even on the same region on the same country. It is clear which side of the line each one of us is, so not worthile to discuss this any further.
    - ch4s3 4y ago
      > unfortunely lawsuits and liability procedures Why would you want law suits against software developers to be more common?

pjmlp 4y ago

High integrity computing has proven record of what those practices should be. As for the rest of your arguments, let me rephrase it, And finally and the most important thing for me: the amount of knowledge you get from a degree is just a small, often antiquated, part of what's actually medicine in practice. As someone with an actual medicine degree, I do not think that the degree is necessary for someone to be a great doctor. Most of the important knowledge will be learned on internships and on various yearly conferences anyways. In my opinion, making a doctor a protected title will, at best, do nothing. At worst it will put good doctors without a title out of a job, for no actual change in the quality of the treatments being applied.

gjulianm 4y ago
> High integrity computing has proven record of what those practices should be. And high integrity computing is applied only on certain projects with limited scope because outside of that it's not viable. I'd like to see high integrity computing applied to a web app. > As for the rest of your arguments, let me rephrase it, You might rephrase it as much as you want, it does not make it an apt comparison nor an actual argument. Funnily enough, my SO is a doctor so I see how different our education and work is. The set of base knowledge they get in the degree is not small nor antiquated: there's nobody releasing a new human body every other year, but in SWE we have new operating systems and new execution environments constantly. The set of tools doctors use is fairly constant and consistent between hospitals, in SWE two companies might have entirely different processes, tools and code, and still be functional. And while yes, doctors need to learn new things constantly and there's quite a lot to learn on internships (which, by the way, are different from SWE internships, as internships in medicine is where doctors get their specialization education), from what I've seen I guarantee you there's practically no way one could be a good doctor without having most of the knowledge they learn in the degree and the specialization years.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  High integrity computing is still not widespread enough, because unfortunely lawsuits and liability procedures aren't yet common, but they eventually will. We only need a few more media star exploits landing across social media for goverments to finally act upon it. That web app would have a process just like anything else. It would be more expensive? Certainly, yet the food joint down the corner also needs to oblige to safety regulations if it doesn't want to be closed down by health inspection, and yet they manage. Hospitals have workflow and treatment guidelines for a reason, they aren't the same process in every single one, not even on the same region on the same country. It is clear which side of the line each one of us is, so not worthile to discuss this any further.
  - ch4s3 4y ago
    > unfortunely lawsuits and liability procedures Why would you want law suits against software developers to be more common?