6 ms·

To me, I felt this take was so disconnected from my reality as a user that I didn't even know where to start. Looking at the author bio, I can see he's very in

by athrun 4y ago

To me, I felt this take was so disconnected from my reality as a user that I didn't even know where to start. Looking at the author bio, I can see he's very invested in the Blink project so it's difficult to shake the feeling that by arguing for "browser diversity", he's simply pushing for increased Blink dominance. If one truly wanted to get more diversity in the Browser space, the number one objective should be getting Google to divest from the Chrome project. This would finally create space for other players to come in and have real influence over the future of the web. As it is today, everything Web-related gravitates around what Google wants. Apple is not playing ball, and so Google is getting the community to push regulators to intervene and make them kneel. Well, that's my view at least, maybe I'm too cynical.

cowtools 4y ago
From my perspective as a firefox user, chrome/chromium is the most successful browser because it's the best. Apple needs to resort to cheap tactics to hold onto their market share and create vendor lock-in for their users, which is profitable for them.
- salzig 4y ago
  are you really afraid of a mobile browser that is only used by ~13% [0] of Global Mobile Devices? ~87% of Mobiles Devices run Android (so potentially use Chrome). Besides that, do you believe that there is any money for apple to earn by "forcing" safari to its iOS users? I would like to see other browser too, but right now it looks more like Google is forcing Chrome in every corner so they can make money out of it. I personally don't like Chrome everywhere, it's the same shit we had with Internet Explorer. After some features where added to IE you couldn't use Netscape everywhere anymore. It took us quite a while to getrid of IE again. Chrome is IMHO kind of going the same direction, adding more and more features to let other browser look bad -> and thereby improve/increase market share. But are we really benefiting of a single browser engine? We call Browsers Operating Systems of the Web. Why would it be good to have a single OS? 0: https://www.statista.com/statistics/272307/market-share-forecast-for-smartphone-operating-systems/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/272307/market-share-fore...
  - cowtools 4y ago
    >Besides that, do you believe that there is any money for apple to earn by "forcing" safari to its iOS users? Yes. I think limiting functionality in safari is a deliberate tactic to keep users in their app store, where they charge a 30% fee on every transaction. >Why would it be good to have a single OS? It would be good to have the whole world on one single OS as long as it's open source. And chromium is open source so this argument doesn't really hold much merit to me. I would completely support a Linux/BSD world domination.
    - salzig 4y ago
      I really don't want to see a single OS, Browser, Anything for everyone. I generally support the idea of having the choice to select the browser i like, but really hoping we're not again ending up with a single option. Kind of OT, but i find it confusing that apple is even able to ship Safari with Mac/iOS/iPadOS in Europe, after Microsoft was forced to integrate a "pick your Browser" Screen into Windows. i had hoped that would require every vendor to integrate something like that. btw, multiple down votes, but a single reaction. Yay, HN at it's best.
      - kalleboo 4y ago
        > Kind of OT, but i find it confusing that apple is even able to ship Safari with Mac/iOS/iPadOS in Europe, after Microsoft was forced to integrate a "pick your Browser" Screen into Windows The difference is that Windows had like 95% market share and the iPhone has only 23% market share
        salzig 4y ago
        but wouldn't all benefit if Apple is forced to show a selection on Mac/iOS, and Google would be forced on Android/ChromeOS?
        depressedpanda 4y ago
        It would. More importantly, though, it would also entail Apple allowing other browsers on iOS, meaning that they would have to compete on quality rather than lock in. The issue is that I, as a dev, am not allowed to use anything not supported on iOS/Safari, since that is half the market in the West. Apple is holding the web back by forcing everyone to adapt to the lowest common denominator, effectively controlling a platform they have no business controlling.
- msh 4y ago
  chrome does exactly the same thing on chromebooks.
- viktorcode 4y ago
  Please define "best"? Certainly, it's not the power efficiency. Not memory efficiency either. Performance maybe? But then it's very different from test to test. So, what makes Chromium the best?
  - stale2002 4y ago
    > Please define "best"? Best would be the one that users choose to use, when they are given the option and full power to do so.
    - viktorcode 4y ago
      Internet Explorer 6 was dominating the web. Was it best too?
      - stale2002 4y ago
        Did you read the part where I said: "when they are given the option and full power to do so."? Microsoft, just like Apple, engaged in anti-competitive practices that prevented user choice. The solution to both of these situations, is either the courts force apple to allow user choice, just like it forced Microsoft, or for new laws to be created to do something similar.
        viktorcode 4y ago
        Unlike in Apple's situation, users had the full power of choice of installing a web browser on Windows PCs. They used IE for the same reason people now installing Chrome: it's the browser where the most of the stuff doesn't break.
        stale2002 4y ago
        You did not address the part where I said "Microsoft, just like Apple, engaged in anti-competitive practices that prevented user choice.". Microsoft was literally brought to court, and a judge said that their practices were anti competitive. So yes, the legal system said that Microsoft was anti-competitive. You should go read up on the court case, because it is an absolutely true fact that a judge ruled that Microsoft engaged in anti-competitive practices. And now there are new laws, in the EU, that will prevent Apple from engaging in anti-competitive practices as well.
- dehrmann 4y ago
  I also think (but have no evidence) that Apple mandates the browser engine for performance and battery use reasons.

by athrun 4y ago

cowtools 4y ago

From my perspective as a firefox user, chrome/chromium is the most successful browser because it's the best. Apple needs to resort to cheap tactics to hold onto their market share and create vendor lock-in for their users, which is profitable for them.

salzig 4y ago
are you really afraid of a mobile browser that is only used by ~13% [0] of Global Mobile Devices? ~87% of Mobiles Devices run Android (so potentially use Chrome). Besides that, do you believe that there is any money for apple to earn by "forcing" safari to its iOS users? I would like to see other browser too, but right now it looks more like Google is forcing Chrome in every corner so they can make money out of it. I personally don't like Chrome everywhere, it's the same shit we had with Internet Explorer. After some features where added to IE you couldn't use Netscape everywhere anymore. It took us quite a while to getrid of IE again. Chrome is IMHO kind of going the same direction, adding more and more features to let other browser look bad -> and thereby improve/increase market share. But are we really benefiting of a single browser engine? We call Browsers Operating Systems of the Web. Why would it be good to have a single OS? 0: https://www.statista.com/statistics/272307/market-share-forecast-for-smartphone-operating-systems/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/272307/market-share-fore...
- cowtools 4y ago
  >Besides that, do you believe that there is any money for apple to earn by "forcing" safari to its iOS users? Yes. I think limiting functionality in safari is a deliberate tactic to keep users in their app store, where they charge a 30% fee on every transaction. >Why would it be good to have a single OS? It would be good to have the whole world on one single OS as long as it's open source. And chromium is open source so this argument doesn't really hold much merit to me. I would completely support a Linux/BSD world domination.
  - salzig 4y ago
    I really don't want to see a single OS, Browser, Anything for everyone. I generally support the idea of having the choice to select the browser i like, but really hoping we're not again ending up with a single option. Kind of OT, but i find it confusing that apple is even able to ship Safari with Mac/iOS/iPadOS in Europe, after Microsoft was forced to integrate a "pick your Browser" Screen into Windows. i had hoped that would require every vendor to integrate something like that. btw, multiple down votes, but a single reaction. Yay, HN at it's best.
    - kalleboo 4y ago
      > Kind of OT, but i find it confusing that apple is even able to ship Safari with Mac/iOS/iPadOS in Europe, after Microsoft was forced to integrate a "pick your Browser" Screen into Windows The difference is that Windows had like 95% market share and the iPhone has only 23% market share
      - salzig 4y ago
        but wouldn't all benefit if Apple is forced to show a selection on Mac/iOS, and Google would be forced on Android/ChromeOS?
        depressedpanda 4y ago
        It would. More importantly, though, it would also entail Apple allowing other browsers on iOS, meaning that they would have to compete on quality rather than lock in. The issue is that I, as a dev, am not allowed to use anything not supported on iOS/Safari, since that is half the market in the West. Apple is holding the web back by forcing everyone to adapt to the lowest common denominator, effectively controlling a platform they have no business controlling.
msh 4y ago
chrome does exactly the same thing on chromebooks.
viktorcode 4y ago
Please define "best"? Certainly, it's not the power efficiency. Not memory efficiency either. Performance maybe? But then it's very different from test to test. So, what makes Chromium the best?
- stale2002 4y ago
  > Please define "best"? Best would be the one that users choose to use, when they are given the option and full power to do so.
  - viktorcode 4y ago
    Internet Explorer 6 was dominating the web. Was it best too?
    - stale2002 4y ago
      Did you read the part where I said: "when they are given the option and full power to do so."? Microsoft, just like Apple, engaged in anti-competitive practices that prevented user choice. The solution to both of these situations, is either the courts force apple to allow user choice, just like it forced Microsoft, or for new laws to be created to do something similar.
      - viktorcode 4y ago
        Unlike in Apple's situation, users had the full power of choice of installing a web browser on Windows PCs. They used IE for the same reason people now installing Chrome: it's the browser where the most of the stuff doesn't break.
        stale2002 4y ago
        You did not address the part where I said "Microsoft, just like Apple, engaged in anti-competitive practices that prevented user choice.". Microsoft was literally brought to court, and a judge said that their practices were anti competitive. So yes, the legal system said that Microsoft was anti-competitive. You should go read up on the court case, because it is an absolutely true fact that a judge ruled that Microsoft engaged in anti-competitive practices. And now there are new laws, in the EU, that will prevent Apple from engaging in anti-competitive practices as well.
dehrmann 4y ago
I also think (but have no evidence) that Apple mandates the browser engine for performance and battery use reasons.