2 ms·

Sure, there is lot's of things I care about privately. In fact I absolutely love programming languages and it took me a while to separate my excitement from my

Sure, there is lot's of things I care about privately. In fact I absolutely love programming languages and it took me a while to separate my excitement from my professional work. Your family comparison is super weird. There is no love and loyalty between employer and employee. The relationship is antagonistic by nature. If I find a better job, I am out. If they don't need me, they will kick me out. They pay me the minimum amount they can get away with and try to squeeze out the maximum value. They don't care about me as a human being and they should not, that is business. (It is the job of labor laws and unions to make the interaction more humane, I don't believe in idealism.) Of course, I still have professional pride and given the choice will try to do a good job but for me being a professional also means being emotionally detached from it. It is just business. I work for money. The meaningful stuff in my life happens outside of my employment.

wjnc 4y ago
"Super weird" /to you/? I just ment to underline that (for me) it's the same type of caring. I'm professional, could do the same job at a dozen employers, etc. I think we feel the same about that. But I care about my work in a deep way that you don't seem to feel. If I manage to get a junior / medior to properly step up to a task and grow confident I feel pride, connection and sense of doing the right thing. The whole business layer comes second for me at that moment. Another thought is that I feel that 'in Europe' (generalisation) the antagonistic nature of employment is not felt the same way especially for professional jobs. We have no firing at will. As an manager I understand that I have a multi year relationship with people that should transcend the tasks at hand. The tasks at hand should be done and done well, but a job should be both fulfilling and manageable for the individual. Even if a hiring fails somewhat you have to make it work. The current job market creates an even bigger reason to treat people well.
- asiachick 4y ago
  Are you saying people in Europe care more about their jobs? That's certainly not my experience. I've met just as many Europeans that hate their jobs and just do it for the money. They spend as little time as possible doing them. I'm reminded of this book https://web.archive.org/web/20090901204114/https://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/14/world/a-french-employee-s-work-celebrates-the-sloth-ethic.html https://web.archive.org/web/20090901204114/https://www.nytim...
  - 2b3a51 4y ago
    Well, didn't she do well (as the host of a popular UK TV game show used to say about contestants) https://www.corinnemaier.info/english/ https://www.corinnemaier.info/english/ Of course, you work to pay for the rest of your life but I think there is a role for craft and teamwork in all of this.
kubanczyk 4y ago
> There is no love and loyalty between employer and employee. I don't think anybody here talks about employees caring about or loving their employer. It's about about worker caring about their work. Because if I don't care, this is what happens: if input == input_that_causes_bug_1948348 { return static_output_for_bug_1948348 } Add UT. Next ticket please.
- 411111111111111 4y ago
  Well, if a given architecture doesn't allow for another solution, that might be the only implementable choice. Remaking the core architecture to solve an obscure bug which only happens when you've got overlapping leap years and leap seconds is most certainly a bad decision. For a simple example: Phillips hue movement detectors don't work for a very short time before new years. (My guess is that they're validating the year for the activation signal). I don't know how the bug occurs, but i can imagine several ways in which this could become unfixable if a given architecture was chosen... I still want it to work though, so I'd really like it if they'd just added something like your example.
  - kubanczyk 4y ago
    How about these implementable choices for a dirty fix: - make lightbulbs work in these last seconds of the year 2022 and only that year - make lightbulbs work in the last seconds of years 2023-2036 or more This is the distinction I've been trying to make: there are sometimes powerful incentives pushing workers into the former, even if the latter could be approximately the same effort.
    - 411111111111111 4y ago
      Ah, I misunderstood your example in that case. I was thinking more about solving it at the source vs essentially just catching the error case and overwriting the behavior. And while the latter is definitely "code smell"/technical debt... Sometimes, there aren't really any good solutions to a given problem
  - 4y ago
oifjsidjf 4y ago
There is much truth in this comment, many people don't wish to see this and are there suprised when their "nice boss or management" fires them without caring how they will support their family.
kwhitefoot 4y ago
> There is no love and loyalty between employer and employee. Where you are perhaps. But there are still pockets of civilization left on this planet.

wjnc 4y ago

"Super weird" /to you/? I just ment to underline that (for me) it's the same type of caring. I'm professional, could do the same job at a dozen employers, etc. I think we feel the same about that. But I care about my work in a deep way that you don't seem to feel. If I manage to get a junior / medior to properly step up to a task and grow confident I feel pride, connection and sense of doing the right thing. The whole business layer comes second for me at that moment. Another thought is that I feel that 'in Europe' (generalisation) the antagonistic nature of employment is not felt the same way especially for professional jobs. We have no firing at will. As an manager I understand that I have a multi year relationship with people that should transcend the tasks at hand. The tasks at hand should be done and done well, but a job should be both fulfilling and manageable for the individual. Even if a hiring fails somewhat you have to make it work. The current job market creates an even bigger reason to treat people well.

asiachick 4y ago
Are you saying people in Europe care more about their jobs? That's certainly not my experience. I've met just as many Europeans that hate their jobs and just do it for the money. They spend as little time as possible doing them. I'm reminded of this book https://web.archive.org/web/20090901204114/https://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/14/world/a-french-employee-s-work-celebrates-the-sloth-ethic.html https://web.archive.org/web/20090901204114/https://www.nytim...
- 2b3a51 4y ago
  Well, didn't she do well (as the host of a popular UK TV game show used to say about contestants) https://www.corinnemaier.info/english/ https://www.corinnemaier.info/english/ Of course, you work to pay for the rest of your life but I think there is a role for craft and teamwork in all of this.

kubanczyk 4y ago

> There is no love and loyalty between employer and employee. I don't think anybody here talks about employees caring about or loving their employer. It's about about worker caring about their work. Because if I don't care, this is what happens: if input == input_that_causes_bug_1948348 { return static_output_for_bug_1948348 } Add UT. Next ticket please.

411111111111111 4y ago
Well, if a given architecture doesn't allow for another solution, that might be the only implementable choice. Remaking the core architecture to solve an obscure bug which only happens when you've got overlapping leap years and leap seconds is most certainly a bad decision. For a simple example: Phillips hue movement detectors don't work for a very short time before new years. (My guess is that they're validating the year for the activation signal). I don't know how the bug occurs, but i can imagine several ways in which this could become unfixable if a given architecture was chosen... I still want it to work though, so I'd really like it if they'd just added something like your example.
- kubanczyk 4y ago
  How about these implementable choices for a dirty fix: - make lightbulbs work in these last seconds of the year 2022 and only that year - make lightbulbs work in the last seconds of years 2023-2036 or more This is the distinction I've been trying to make: there are sometimes powerful incentives pushing workers into the former, even if the latter could be approximately the same effort.
  - 411111111111111 4y ago
    Ah, I misunderstood your example in that case. I was thinking more about solving it at the source vs essentially just catching the error case and overwriting the behavior. And while the latter is definitely "code smell"/technical debt... Sometimes, there aren't really any good solutions to a given problem
- 4y ago

oifjsidjf 4y ago

There is much truth in this comment, many people don't wish to see this and are there suprised when their "nice boss or management" fires them without caring how they will support their family.

kwhitefoot 4y ago

> There is no love and loyalty between employer and employee. Where you are perhaps. But there are still pockets of civilization left on this planet.