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The promise of crypto is still valid. It’s the centralized idea of crypto platforms like Coinbase that is evaporating, and that’s a good thing.

ls15 4y ago
I think that there is some value in these platforms too. They provide a service after all. Given they are not regulated to death.
jollybean 4y ago
The very fact that such exchanges exist kind of abnegate the promise of crypto. Coinbase is asking for this information for very rational reasons ... the crypto space is re-learning all the problems that pop up when it comes to money and implementing regulations ad hoc. There are definitely arguments to be made one way or another about such regulations either government or industry sanctioned ... but what we can't ignore is that money is important, and usually needs something more than what crypto offers in terms of practical integrity.
nickgubbins 4y ago
As someone with only a cursory knowledge of crypto, what are the decentralised alternatives to the likes of Coinbase to buy/sell crypto assets?
- usednet 4y ago
  You can use a decentralized exchange like Bisq but liquidity is horrible. Hopefully more people make the switch.
- mudrockbestgirl 4y ago
  https://uniswap.org/ https://uniswap.org/
  - colinsane 4y ago
    uniswap is for exchanging crypto assets. you can’t use it to exchange non-crypto ($USD from your bank) assets with crypto assets. it’s not an on-ramp.
- capableweb 4y ago
  It's a hard problem to solve, which doesn't have any fool-proof solutions (yet?). Imagine, someone creates a centralized Twitter and a decentralized Twitter. How can you connect them two and being able to trust any data you receive 3rd-hand which is supposed to originate from the centralized version? The only information you can really trust, is the one you get from the centralized version, as it was built with that principle in mind, that you get it first-hand. Similar problem with hooking together two monetary systems, one which is centralized and one which is decentralized. How could you include a centralized system within the decentralized one without making trade-offs that could potentially ruin the whole integration? There are attempts at it, but as the problem is generally hard to solve (cryptocurrencies or tweets or any other data structure), it's hard to solve with cryptocurrencies as well.
- valcron1000 4y ago
  Look into P2P crypto trading
WA 4y ago
How would I purchase Bitcoin anonymously? I can't, because there is no way to exchange my cash for (significant) amount of Bitcoin. If I can't get Bitcoin anonymously, how is the promise of crypto still valid for newcomers?
- ibz 4y ago
  You can buy bitcoin with cash. You can work and get paid in bitcoin. You can sell stuff for bitcoin. You can mine bitcoin. If you want something, you will find a way.
  - WA 4y ago
    > You can buy bitcoin with cash. Where can I buy 500,000€ worth of Bitcoin with cash? > You can work and get paid in bitcoin. That's usually not anonymous. > You can sell stuff for bitcoin. I don't own stuff worth 500,000€, except cash and stocks. > You can mine bitcoin. Not in a significant way, no. > If you want something, you will find a way. You ran out of arguments. My point still holds: Crypto isn't anonymous, because you can't easily get in and out of it anonymously.
    - anon9001 4y ago
      I think you've missed the point entirely. Practically, there are a ton of ways to turn 500,000 EUR into "anonymous" crypto, depending on what you mean by "anonymous". You can use an exchange (KYC or non-KYC) that lets you trade USDT/XMR pairs. Wire 500,000 EUR and convert to USDT. Buy the full amount worth of XMR and send it to your own XMR hardware wallet. You now have anonymous XMR (assuming you trust their math). You can do something similar with ZEC shielded transactions. Many KYC exchanges support ZEC (but without shielded transactions). You can get your ZEC this way and then shield it. If you're interested in anonymous crypto, XMR or ZEC is probably what you'd want to have anyway instead of BTC. Also, LTC recently adopted a new privacy-enabling feature. It's not functional yet as far as I know, but it did cause LTC to be delisted from several korean exchanges last week. This one is interesting because of the widespread adoption of litecoin before it added privacy features. Or if you'd rather use the ETH ecosystem, you can use https://tornado.cash/ https://tornado.cash/. Buy your KYC'd ETH, send to tornado.cash, wait, withdraw a partial amount to a fresh anonymous ethereum address. There are even privacy-oriented wallets like https://unstoppable.money/ https://unstoppable.money/ that can use tor to further improve anonymity while doing wallet actions. But let's say you really do want bitcoin only. Take your 500,000 EUR and wire it to a KYC exchange. Buy your bitcoin and send it to your wallet. Send that BTC into renVM pools, wait, send your renBTC to a new address, release renBTC back to BTC on the new address: https://bridge.renproject.io/ https://bridge.renproject.io/. In other words, your point does not hold at all. There are probably a dozen different ways to get anonymous crypto right now. In the near future, many common coins will have privacy features anyway, maybe even by default. You have to think about what level of anonymity you want and what premium you're willing to pay, but there's a wide spectrum of options. And if you think it's not easy enough yet, just wait. The math works, it's just not wrapped up into a convenient user experience yet.
usrbinbash 4y ago
Question: How many people would use cryptocurrencies without such platforms?
- knorker 4y ago
  If you want to buy drugs, ransomware, tax fraud (i.e. theft[1]), fake IDs, or have someone whacked, then you'll still use it. So this only affects the single other use case, the legal one: greater fool speculation. [1] before anarchist libertarians object saying "taxation is theft": Please don't start that conversation if you've ever used public roads, parks, or even passively benefited from the security provided by your country having police or a judicial system.
  - danaris 4y ago
    ...or been to a public school, or ever interacted with someone who went to a public school, or, or, or..... If you don't want taxes, you don't want society.
    - Cthulhu_ 4y ago
      I mean, there's a few people that move to a cabin in the woods off the grid for that reason, which is fine if they want to live like that. There's a lot of people however that want the benefits of society (for example to make money) without contributing back.

ls15 4y ago

I think that there is some value in these platforms too. They provide a service after all. Given they are not regulated to death.

jollybean 4y ago

The very fact that such exchanges exist kind of abnegate the promise of crypto. Coinbase is asking for this information for very rational reasons ... the crypto space is re-learning all the problems that pop up when it comes to money and implementing regulations ad hoc. There are definitely arguments to be made one way or another about such regulations either government or industry sanctioned ... but what we can't ignore is that money is important, and usually needs something more than what crypto offers in terms of practical integrity.

nickgubbins 4y ago

As someone with only a cursory knowledge of crypto, what are the decentralised alternatives to the likes of Coinbase to buy/sell crypto assets?

usednet 4y ago
You can use a decentralized exchange like Bisq but liquidity is horrible. Hopefully more people make the switch.
mudrockbestgirl 4y ago
https://uniswap.org/ https://uniswap.org/
- colinsane 4y ago
  uniswap is for exchanging crypto assets. you can’t use it to exchange non-crypto ($USD from your bank) assets with crypto assets. it’s not an on-ramp.
capableweb 4y ago
It's a hard problem to solve, which doesn't have any fool-proof solutions (yet?). Imagine, someone creates a centralized Twitter and a decentralized Twitter. How can you connect them two and being able to trust any data you receive 3rd-hand which is supposed to originate from the centralized version? The only information you can really trust, is the one you get from the centralized version, as it was built with that principle in mind, that you get it first-hand. Similar problem with hooking together two monetary systems, one which is centralized and one which is decentralized. How could you include a centralized system within the decentralized one without making trade-offs that could potentially ruin the whole integration? There are attempts at it, but as the problem is generally hard to solve (cryptocurrencies or tweets or any other data structure), it's hard to solve with cryptocurrencies as well.
valcron1000 4y ago
Look into P2P crypto trading

WA 4y ago

How would I purchase Bitcoin anonymously? I can't, because there is no way to exchange my cash for (significant) amount of Bitcoin. If I can't get Bitcoin anonymously, how is the promise of crypto still valid for newcomers?

ibz 4y ago
You can buy bitcoin with cash. You can work and get paid in bitcoin. You can sell stuff for bitcoin. You can mine bitcoin. If you want something, you will find a way.
- WA 4y ago
  > You can buy bitcoin with cash. Where can I buy 500,000€ worth of Bitcoin with cash? > You can work and get paid in bitcoin. That's usually not anonymous. > You can sell stuff for bitcoin. I don't own stuff worth 500,000€, except cash and stocks. > You can mine bitcoin. Not in a significant way, no. > If you want something, you will find a way. You ran out of arguments. My point still holds: Crypto isn't anonymous, because you can't easily get in and out of it anonymously.
  - anon9001 4y ago
    I think you've missed the point entirely. Practically, there are a ton of ways to turn 500,000 EUR into "anonymous" crypto, depending on what you mean by "anonymous". You can use an exchange (KYC or non-KYC) that lets you trade USDT/XMR pairs. Wire 500,000 EUR and convert to USDT. Buy the full amount worth of XMR and send it to your own XMR hardware wallet. You now have anonymous XMR (assuming you trust their math). You can do something similar with ZEC shielded transactions. Many KYC exchanges support ZEC (but without shielded transactions). You can get your ZEC this way and then shield it. If you're interested in anonymous crypto, XMR or ZEC is probably what you'd want to have anyway instead of BTC. Also, LTC recently adopted a new privacy-enabling feature. It's not functional yet as far as I know, but it did cause LTC to be delisted from several korean exchanges last week. This one is interesting because of the widespread adoption of litecoin before it added privacy features. Or if you'd rather use the ETH ecosystem, you can use https://tornado.cash/ https://tornado.cash/. Buy your KYC'd ETH, send to tornado.cash, wait, withdraw a partial amount to a fresh anonymous ethereum address. There are even privacy-oriented wallets like https://unstoppable.money/ https://unstoppable.money/ that can use tor to further improve anonymity while doing wallet actions. But let's say you really do want bitcoin only. Take your 500,000 EUR and wire it to a KYC exchange. Buy your bitcoin and send it to your wallet. Send that BTC into renVM pools, wait, send your renBTC to a new address, release renBTC back to BTC on the new address: https://bridge.renproject.io/ https://bridge.renproject.io/. In other words, your point does not hold at all. There are probably a dozen different ways to get anonymous crypto right now. In the near future, many common coins will have privacy features anyway, maybe even by default. You have to think about what level of anonymity you want and what premium you're willing to pay, but there's a wide spectrum of options. And if you think it's not easy enough yet, just wait. The math works, it's just not wrapped up into a convenient user experience yet.

usrbinbash 4y ago

Question: How many people would use cryptocurrencies without such platforms?

knorker 4y ago
If you want to buy drugs, ransomware, tax fraud (i.e. theft[1]), fake IDs, or have someone whacked, then you'll still use it. So this only affects the single other use case, the legal one: greater fool speculation. [1] before anarchist libertarians object saying "taxation is theft": Please don't start that conversation if you've ever used public roads, parks, or even passively benefited from the security provided by your country having police or a judicial system.
- danaris 4y ago
  ...or been to a public school, or ever interacted with someone who went to a public school, or, or, or..... If you don't want taxes, you don't want society.
  - Cthulhu_ 4y ago
    I mean, there's a few people that move to a cabin in the woods off the grid for that reason, which is fine if they want to live like that. There's a lot of people however that want the benefits of society (for example to make money) without contributing back.