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I come from China. And US is still way better than China to start a small tech startup. Don't know much about Israel though.

by angkec 15y ago

ck2 15y ago
Sure, I get that, but if you could go to Vancouver (which apparently is a startup-mecca too) you'd have far less fear about being deported (and ill will from nearly 50% of the population). Why put yourself through that - running a business is enough stress. The USA is like going to a store, filling up your cart, but just before you are about to checkout and make them money, they drag you out the door instead.
- BadassFractal 15y ago
  I seriously doubt the Vancouver scene is even remotely as big as the one in the Bay Area. The only thing that comes close to SV on this continent is NY, and even that is a decade behind.
  - ck2 15y ago
    But do you need the "biggest and best" scene, or do you just need a decent environment where what you are trying to do is not uncommon and the resources you need have already been established?
    - BadassFractal 15y ago
      I believe one of PG's latest essays seems to suggest that being in the middle of it all has been vital for many successful businesses out there.
    - BadassFractal 15y ago
      I believe one of PG's latest essays seems to suggest that being in the middle of it all has been vital for many successful businesses out there.
    - Zimahl 15y ago
      I've been at a startup that was about as far outside of the bay area as possible - North Idaho. We had a great product in a nice space and were fairly successful at selling it and making modest profit. But the start was rough. Unless it's a one-person gig (and there aren't many of those out there) you need two things - bodies and money. The further you are away from metro areas the harder it is to find both - the people with the skills either left or are already working somewhere and the investors aren't multi-millionaires, they are angels with $10-20k each, sometimes $100k+. It's possible though. That startup eventually sold but long after a more inferior competitor sold for a lot more which had more to do with their location (Cali, I think in the valley) than how well they functioned. And the company I was with sold for less than we thought it would and long after the window in which acquisition would have been ideal. There's just no visibility outside of major (tech hub) metro areas. You don't get any buzz even if you are in magazines and the like, and you don't have the contacts that can really help you out. It's a major negative. Pure (somewhat educated) conjecture: if that startup would've been in Seattle or Portland it would've sold much earlier and for much more than it did, maybe in year 6 instead of year 10. If in the Bay area I think it would've sold by year 3 instead of year 10.
      - mgkimsal 15y ago
        Sounds like if the goals are acquisition and quick payouts, the place to be is SV. However, you indicated that the company in Idaho was better run or had a better product. Isn't that better for the end users in the long run? Wouldn't that indicate there's a better chance of a company staying around for the long haul and providing better service and what not? Wouldn't be surprising at all if your competitor that was acquired was absorbed or shut down within a year. For the founders - sure, that's success - they had an exit. But how is this necessarily good for the long term economics of those businesses? The original video story on this talked about all the jobs that 'high tech entrepreneurs' create. But how long do those jobs last? Sure, there's no such thing as a 30 year job for most people any more, but isn't this type of behaviour contributing or accelerating this trend?
        Zimahl 15y ago
        True, the main goal wasn't necessarily getting acquired, although typically that's what you expect to happen with a lot of tech startups. To get big we would've had to change direction (which wouldn't have been a bad idea). Whether or not we were to get acquired, it was just tough to find quality employees and the money to pay them until sales went into the black. It took about 3 years to become solvent and even then that did help luring good programmers to Idaho.
- angkec 15y ago
  Can you point me to more information about Vancouver for immigrants? I'm still on a student visa in the US but eventually I'll face problems like this Israeli.
- potatolicious 15y ago
  I grew up in Vancouver, now live in SF. Comparing the startup scene in Vancouver to the one in the Bay Area is like, well, comparing a basket of oranges to an entire orchard. Or a bunny hill to a black diamond run. The level of acceptance for hackers, much less hacker-entrepreneurs, is worlds apart. There are numerous places in Canada that would proclaim the title of "Silicon Valley North", I've lived in almost all of them. None come remotely close.
cmer 15y ago
Being from China, you have one major advantage over most of us: you're in the booming market of China. If I knew anything about your country, language and culture, I'd probably give it a shot. You should use your situation to your advantage in my opinion. The asian culture is so foreign to us North Americans that it makes it nearly impossible for us to do business over there, yet, there's a huge opportunity.
- angkec 15y ago
  Everyone thinks this way, but then it's so hard for an average Chinese to succeed in his own country in the form of startups. Seems like there's more barriers facing a Chinese startup than an US equivalent. Plus there's this distant fear that the country will fail sometime in the future and all the sweat into the startup will evaporate. This is probably why so many Chinese are fleeing the country.
  - cmer 15y ago
    We have the same problems and barriers in the US. Nobody ever said starting a startup was easy.
    - angkec 15y ago
      I know. But having being born in China and stayed in the US for the last 3 years, I feel there are many more barriers for a Chinese startup than a US one. That's why I've started my own in the US, even knowing that there will probably be some messy business when my student visa expires.

I come from China. And US is still way better than China to start a small tech startup. Don't know much about Israel though.

by angkec 15y ago

I come from China. And US is still way better than China to start a small tech startup. Don't know much about Israel though.

ck2 15y ago

Sure, I get that, but if you could go to Vancouver (which apparently is a startup-mecca too) you'd have far less fear about being deported (and ill will from nearly 50% of the population). Why put yourself through that - running a business is enough stress. The USA is like going to a store, filling up your cart, but just before you are about to checkout and make them money, they drag you out the door instead.

BadassFractal 15y ago
I seriously doubt the Vancouver scene is even remotely as big as the one in the Bay Area. The only thing that comes close to SV on this continent is NY, and even that is a decade behind.
- ck2 15y ago
  But do you need the "biggest and best" scene, or do you just need a decent environment where what you are trying to do is not uncommon and the resources you need have already been established?
  - BadassFractal 15y ago
    I believe one of PG's latest essays seems to suggest that being in the middle of it all has been vital for many successful businesses out there.
  - BadassFractal 15y ago
    I believe one of PG's latest essays seems to suggest that being in the middle of it all has been vital for many successful businesses out there.
  - Zimahl 15y ago
    I've been at a startup that was about as far outside of the bay area as possible - North Idaho. We had a great product in a nice space and were fairly successful at selling it and making modest profit. But the start was rough. Unless it's a one-person gig (and there aren't many of those out there) you need two things - bodies and money. The further you are away from metro areas the harder it is to find both - the people with the skills either left or are already working somewhere and the investors aren't multi-millionaires, they are angels with $10-20k each, sometimes $100k+. It's possible though. That startup eventually sold but long after a more inferior competitor sold for a lot more which had more to do with their location (Cali, I think in the valley) than how well they functioned. And the company I was with sold for less than we thought it would and long after the window in which acquisition would have been ideal. There's just no visibility outside of major (tech hub) metro areas. You don't get any buzz even if you are in magazines and the like, and you don't have the contacts that can really help you out. It's a major negative. Pure (somewhat educated) conjecture: if that startup would've been in Seattle or Portland it would've sold much earlier and for much more than it did, maybe in year 6 instead of year 10. If in the Bay area I think it would've sold by year 3 instead of year 10.
    - mgkimsal 15y ago
      Sounds like if the goals are acquisition and quick payouts, the place to be is SV. However, you indicated that the company in Idaho was better run or had a better product. Isn't that better for the end users in the long run? Wouldn't that indicate there's a better chance of a company staying around for the long haul and providing better service and what not? Wouldn't be surprising at all if your competitor that was acquired was absorbed or shut down within a year. For the founders - sure, that's success - they had an exit. But how is this necessarily good for the long term economics of those businesses? The original video story on this talked about all the jobs that 'high tech entrepreneurs' create. But how long do those jobs last? Sure, there's no such thing as a 30 year job for most people any more, but isn't this type of behaviour contributing or accelerating this trend?
      - Zimahl 15y ago
        True, the main goal wasn't necessarily getting acquired, although typically that's what you expect to happen with a lot of tech startups. To get big we would've had to change direction (which wouldn't have been a bad idea). Whether or not we were to get acquired, it was just tough to find quality employees and the money to pay them until sales went into the black. It took about 3 years to become solvent and even then that did help luring good programmers to Idaho.
angkec 15y ago
Can you point me to more information about Vancouver for immigrants? I'm still on a student visa in the US but eventually I'll face problems like this Israeli.
potatolicious 15y ago
I grew up in Vancouver, now live in SF. Comparing the startup scene in Vancouver to the one in the Bay Area is like, well, comparing a basket of oranges to an entire orchard. Or a bunny hill to a black diamond run. The level of acceptance for hackers, much less hacker-entrepreneurs, is worlds apart. There are numerous places in Canada that would proclaim the title of "Silicon Valley North", I've lived in almost all of them. None come remotely close.

cmer 15y ago

Being from China, you have one major advantage over most of us: you're in the booming market of China. If I knew anything about your country, language and culture, I'd probably give it a shot. You should use your situation to your advantage in my opinion. The asian culture is so foreign to us North Americans that it makes it nearly impossible for us to do business over there, yet, there's a huge opportunity.

angkec 15y ago
Everyone thinks this way, but then it's so hard for an average Chinese to succeed in his own country in the form of startups. Seems like there's more barriers facing a Chinese startup than an US equivalent. Plus there's this distant fear that the country will fail sometime in the future and all the sweat into the startup will evaporate. This is probably why so many Chinese are fleeing the country.
- cmer 15y ago
  We have the same problems and barriers in the US. Nobody ever said starting a startup was easy.
  - angkec 15y ago
    I know. But having being born in China and stayed in the US for the last 3 years, I feel there are many more barriers for a Chinese startup than a US one. That's why I've started my own in the US, even knowing that there will probably be some messy business when my student visa expires.