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The deep state is a real thing. I don’t think it has to be explicitly negative, but there are a lot of unelected bureaucrats that hold a lot of power with minim

The deep state is a real thing. I don’t think it has to be explicitly negative, but there are a lot of unelected bureaucrats that hold a lot of power with minimal accountability and visibility.

feet 4y ago
Yea its the corporations, lobbyists, think-tanks and those who pay them. Its consolidation of corporate power. Its fascism
vajrabum 4y ago
Are you talking about Government employees or lobbyists? BTW, notice that their power is circumscribed by the law. When that changes their powers change.
- feet 4y ago
  Lmao what? They write the laws! Think tanks are literally paid to draft legislation
  - sailfast 4y ago
    Think tanks are not the government. They are private institutions. Typically when one uses the term "deep state" you mean someone working in the government that has their own agenda and/or are acting on a specific conspiracy / cabal agenda counter to the direction of, say, the administration providing the guidance and direction. This is why the person asked about employees vs. lobbyists.
    - feet 4y ago
      Yea, its the normal government and the deep state is the fact that its actually controlled by corporations and lobbyists. The corporations and lobbyists and think tanks are the deep state. They're the ones really in control, spreading propaganda and getting Americans to vote against their personal interests. Politicians are the biggest cucks for capitalism because they all get rich in office by fearing the corporate lobbyists and giving them the legislation that they want. That's the deep state
      - ajvs 4y ago
        Whilst I agree that external moneyed interests control the US government to a large degree via the aforementioned mechanisms, this is not what people refer to when they say Deep State. Deep State refers to government employees who hold a lot of power e.g. heads of alphabet agencies, their close underlings, etc and wield it in such a way that there's little recourse for the average American. Both these moneyed interests AND the Deep State exert an influence that citizens should seek to regulate.
        feet 4y ago
        What I'm saying is that those people in government who could be considered "deep state" are the ones appointed due to the money in politics. I agree that there is unaccountability but it all comes down to money and corporate power The ones with the money and corporate power are pulling the strings of those who they install
sailfast 4y ago
Such as? Not trying to be pedantic, just looking for a more specific example. Are you talking about political appointees or public servants? If so, where? What agencies?
- thaumasiotes 4y ago
  Here is a right-coded example of a hypothetical agency behavior with many claimed historical occurrences: Suppose you are the EPA and you'd like to implement some environmental rule that might or might not be strictly within your legal powers. You work out a deal with a friendly organization and they sue you for improper stewardship of the environment (with details, obviously, according to the rule you want to implement). Then, instead of fighting their lawsuit, you settle it, agreeing to their demands -- which consist of the rule you wanted to implement. That rule is now one you are obligated to enforce pursuant to a legal agreement, instead of something you implemented on your own authority. This structure tends to prevent normal accountability mechanisms from working. (As a side note, I'm always surprised, when I see descriptions of this tactic, that it's permissible for an agency to agree to take actions that are notionally not within the power of the agency. I would be interested to know more about what exactly is going on there.)
  - zdragnar 4y ago
    On June 17, the Secretary of Interior ordered the Department of Interior to take down a public website detailing settlement agreements and final dispositions. Score one for losing transparency into the cycle of bureaucrats funding former bureaucrats of similar political alignment by abusing the courts. It's really sad when you realize that Trump's administration (when the initial rule establishing the website) was more transparent than Bidens. Before, the settlements were posted immediately; now, if you even know about them at all, you need to wait months after filing a FOIA to find out about it. Some of the more prolific groups have been getting 1 to 3 million dollars a year from the settlements alone.
  - bitexploder 4y ago
    Rocky flats was one of the only times one agency raided another. Wild stuff.

The deep state is a real thing. I don’t think it has to be explicitly negative, but there are a lot of unelected bureaucrats that hold a lot of power with minimal accountability and visibility.

feet 4y ago

Yea its the corporations, lobbyists, think-tanks and those who pay them. Its consolidation of corporate power. Its fascism

vajrabum 4y ago

Are you talking about Government employees or lobbyists? BTW, notice that their power is circumscribed by the law. When that changes their powers change.

feet 4y ago
Lmao what? They write the laws! Think tanks are literally paid to draft legislation
- sailfast 4y ago
  Think tanks are not the government. They are private institutions. Typically when one uses the term "deep state" you mean someone working in the government that has their own agenda and/or are acting on a specific conspiracy / cabal agenda counter to the direction of, say, the administration providing the guidance and direction. This is why the person asked about employees vs. lobbyists.
  - feet 4y ago
    Yea, its the normal government and the deep state is the fact that its actually controlled by corporations and lobbyists. The corporations and lobbyists and think tanks are the deep state. They're the ones really in control, spreading propaganda and getting Americans to vote against their personal interests. Politicians are the biggest cucks for capitalism because they all get rich in office by fearing the corporate lobbyists and giving them the legislation that they want. That's the deep state
    - ajvs 4y ago
      Whilst I agree that external moneyed interests control the US government to a large degree via the aforementioned mechanisms, this is not what people refer to when they say Deep State. Deep State refers to government employees who hold a lot of power e.g. heads of alphabet agencies, their close underlings, etc and wield it in such a way that there's little recourse for the average American. Both these moneyed interests AND the Deep State exert an influence that citizens should seek to regulate.
      - feet 4y ago
        What I'm saying is that those people in government who could be considered "deep state" are the ones appointed due to the money in politics. I agree that there is unaccountability but it all comes down to money and corporate power The ones with the money and corporate power are pulling the strings of those who they install

sailfast 4y ago

Such as? Not trying to be pedantic, just looking for a more specific example. Are you talking about political appointees or public servants? If so, where? What agencies?

thaumasiotes 4y ago
Here is a right-coded example of a hypothetical agency behavior with many claimed historical occurrences: Suppose you are the EPA and you'd like to implement some environmental rule that might or might not be strictly within your legal powers. You work out a deal with a friendly organization and they sue you for improper stewardship of the environment (with details, obviously, according to the rule you want to implement). Then, instead of fighting their lawsuit, you settle it, agreeing to their demands -- which consist of the rule you wanted to implement. That rule is now one you are obligated to enforce pursuant to a legal agreement, instead of something you implemented on your own authority. This structure tends to prevent normal accountability mechanisms from working. (As a side note, I'm always surprised, when I see descriptions of this tactic, that it's permissible for an agency to agree to take actions that are notionally not within the power of the agency. I would be interested to know more about what exactly is going on there.)
- zdragnar 4y ago
  On June 17, the Secretary of Interior ordered the Department of Interior to take down a public website detailing settlement agreements and final dispositions. Score one for losing transparency into the cycle of bureaucrats funding former bureaucrats of similar political alignment by abusing the courts. It's really sad when you realize that Trump's administration (when the initial rule establishing the website) was more transparent than Bidens. Before, the settlements were posted immediately; now, if you even know about them at all, you need to wait months after filing a FOIA to find out about it. Some of the more prolific groups have been getting 1 to 3 million dollars a year from the settlements alone.
- bitexploder 4y ago
  Rocky flats was one of the only times one agency raided another. Wild stuff.