5 ms·

The article photo looks like it's actually of a Mayan pyramid, which is silly since it seems like there are perfectly impressive pictures of actual Ziggurats: h

The article photo looks like it's actually of a Mayan pyramid, which is silly since it seems like there are perfectly impressive pictures of actual Ziggurats: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziggurat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziggurat.

throwaway894345 4y ago
There was some documentary I watched about how disparate cultures all over the world independently invented pyramids and similar structures. Basically covergent evolution applied to ideas.
- contingencies 4y ago
  I think the idea is pre-cognitively expressed in hominid behavioral patterns: sweeping views + army of allies beneath and around you = physical safety. Well, since pterodactyls died out, anyway.
  - AlotOfReading 4y ago
    Evo-psych is usually pretty hard to nail down into a singular argument that isn't simply projecting your own assumptions back out. Take the case of Teotihuacan for example, which is at the bottom of a large valley surrounded by mountains. The famous avenue of the dead is oriented to point directly at one of those mountains, Cerro Gordo. It's a lot of effort to go to for a shitty vantage point when you can just build a hillfort a few miles away, like they did at Monte Alban.
    - contingencies 4y ago
      Good point. However, if you can see it in all hominids, it's probably legit. ie. strength in numbers + defensible positions vs. predators, preference for sweeping open views vs. predators, etc. Ultimately moving rocks in an agricultural society can begin with the simple requirements to til the fields more efficiently. What starts as a pile may become the symbol of the legitimacy of the dynasty...
      - throwaway894345 4y ago
        I don’t think you do see it in all hominids, but rather only in sapiens, and probably only in the agrarian societies at that.
- duped 4y ago
  Another way to look at them is a great example of survivorship bias. There's not much in the way of buildings that humans can build tall with hand tools and preindustrial materials that last thousands of years but stone pyramids. Even masonry doesn't hold up to history, unless it gets buried (people like to tear buildings down and reuse small, light pieces - a limestone block isn't exactly portable).
  - gpderetta 4y ago
    Conical towers.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
thaumasiotes 4y ago
> it seems like there are perfectly impressive pictures of actual Ziggurats: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziggurat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziggurat Well, that might be true, but if there are they don't appear on that page. We see a ziggurat that is still underground, a sketch of a ziggurat, a ziggurat that has been reconstructed in modern times, a model of a ziggurat, the back wall of a ziggurat (that is otherwise still underground), and a rather different-looking building from the 1970s which is apparently inspired by ziggurats. The reconstructed Ziggurat of Ur is very impressive indeed, but it's understandable that the article might have wanted a picture of an ancient structure rather than a modern reconstruction.
ncmncm 4y ago
Nobody knows what any particular ziggurat looked like, or what features were common to them. It is mostly speculation. The article mentions the Hanging Gardens of "Babylon", but no contemporary source mentions any such thing in any Babylon of history. The best evidence we do have suggests that classical mentions, which don't say where, describe what was found archaeologically in Nineveh, present day Mosul 400 mi north of the ancient site of Babylon. Nineveh, in the time of the Neo-assyrians, had what may have been the first aquaduct (centuries before any of Rome's) feeding water to their elevated gardens. The Neo-assyrians cultivated a reputation for genocide of defeated people, and public torture of their leaders.
- IncRnd 4y ago
  > Nobody knows what any particular ziggurat looked like, or what features were common to them. It is mostly speculation. You can see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chogha_Zanbil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chogha_Zanbil for pictures of the remaining ziggurat at Chogha Zanbil.
  - ncmncm 4y ago
    I am corrected: we know something about how some ziggurats looked.
IncRnd 4y ago
Yes, that's it. The picture is of the temple of Kukulcán in Chichen Itzam, Yucatan, Mexico.
- devoutsalsa 4y ago
  El Castillo!

throwaway894345 4y ago

There was some documentary I watched about how disparate cultures all over the world independently invented pyramids and similar structures. Basically covergent evolution applied to ideas.

contingencies 4y ago
I think the idea is pre-cognitively expressed in hominid behavioral patterns: sweeping views + army of allies beneath and around you = physical safety. Well, since pterodactyls died out, anyway.
- AlotOfReading 4y ago
  Evo-psych is usually pretty hard to nail down into a singular argument that isn't simply projecting your own assumptions back out. Take the case of Teotihuacan for example, which is at the bottom of a large valley surrounded by mountains. The famous avenue of the dead is oriented to point directly at one of those mountains, Cerro Gordo. It's a lot of effort to go to for a shitty vantage point when you can just build a hillfort a few miles away, like they did at Monte Alban.
  - contingencies 4y ago
    Good point. However, if you can see it in all hominids, it's probably legit. ie. strength in numbers + defensible positions vs. predators, preference for sweeping open views vs. predators, etc. Ultimately moving rocks in an agricultural society can begin with the simple requirements to til the fields more efficiently. What starts as a pile may become the symbol of the legitimacy of the dynasty...
    - throwaway894345 4y ago
      I don’t think you do see it in all hominids, but rather only in sapiens, and probably only in the agrarian societies at that.
duped 4y ago
Another way to look at them is a great example of survivorship bias. There's not much in the way of buildings that humans can build tall with hand tools and preindustrial materials that last thousands of years but stone pyramids. Even masonry doesn't hold up to history, unless it gets buried (people like to tear buildings down and reuse small, light pieces - a limestone block isn't exactly portable).
- gpderetta 4y ago
  Conical towers.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

thaumasiotes 4y ago

> it seems like there are perfectly impressive pictures of actual Ziggurats: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziggurat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziggurat Well, that might be true, but if there are they don't appear on that page. We see a ziggurat that is still underground, a sketch of a ziggurat, a ziggurat that has been reconstructed in modern times, a model of a ziggurat, the back wall of a ziggurat (that is otherwise still underground), and a rather different-looking building from the 1970s which is apparently inspired by ziggurats. The reconstructed Ziggurat of Ur is very impressive indeed, but it's understandable that the article might have wanted a picture of an ancient structure rather than a modern reconstruction.

ncmncm 4y ago

Nobody knows what any particular ziggurat looked like, or what features were common to them. It is mostly speculation. The article mentions the Hanging Gardens of "Babylon", but no contemporary source mentions any such thing in any Babylon of history. The best evidence we do have suggests that classical mentions, which don't say where, describe what was found archaeologically in Nineveh, present day Mosul 400 mi north of the ancient site of Babylon. Nineveh, in the time of the Neo-assyrians, had what may have been the first aquaduct (centuries before any of Rome's) feeding water to their elevated gardens. The Neo-assyrians cultivated a reputation for genocide of defeated people, and public torture of their leaders.

IncRnd 4y ago
> Nobody knows what any particular ziggurat looked like, or what features were common to them. It is mostly speculation. You can see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chogha_Zanbil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chogha_Zanbil for pictures of the remaining ziggurat at Chogha Zanbil.
- ncmncm 4y ago
  I am corrected: we know something about how some ziggurats looked.

IncRnd 4y ago

Yes, that's it. The picture is of the temple of Kukulcán in Chichen Itzam, Yucatan, Mexico.

devoutsalsa 4y ago
El Castillo!