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It's quite telling even the most pro-EU people are very opposed to creating anything resembling a real country. Opposition to the EU is often branded as nationa

It's quite telling even the most pro-EU people are very opposed to creating anything resembling a real country. Opposition to the EU is often branded as nationalistic or insular, yet the EU and its proponents are dedicated to keeping the people divided along national lines. It's a very strange Rube Goldberg contraption. It's unsurprising most opponents want to simply disband it - hard to come up with a workable reform plan. Once it's dissolved or enough countries quit, you'll probably see more real integration but on a smaller scale.

ginko 4y ago
>It's quite telling even the most pro-EU people are very opposed to creating anything resembling a real country. What makes you think that? I'm pro-EU and ideally I would like to see it turn into a full fledged country. The issue is that the general population doesn't want this (yet). >Once it's dissolved or enough countries quit, you'll probably see more real integration but on a smaller scale. It won't be dissolved.
- auganov 4y ago
  > What makes you think that? I'm pro-EU and ideally I would like to see it turn into a full fledged country. The issue is that the general population doesn't want this (yet). Disbanding the EU is also not popular with the general population, yet there are many people discussing it and non-trivial political factions supporting it (yes, often they're not serious about it, but still). Where are the people pushing for a common language? My impression is most staunch EU supporters aren't just not pushing for this - they'd actively try to prevent national languages from dying.
  - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
    Several countries in the EU have multiple national languages, so it seems strange to expect an amalgamation of them all to only have one. https://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/european_languages.htm https://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/european_languages.ht...
    - auganov 4y ago
      You cannot have a real major powerful country if the people can't communicate with each other. You cannot have a people. All of these countries with multiple languages on the list are tiny, monolingual in practice or struggling with separatism/conflict. Most fit into into at least 2 of these 3 categories. And certainly none of them have 20+ official languages.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
kristiandupont 4y ago
>It's quite telling even the most pro-EU people are very opposed to creating anything resembling a real country. I am both of those things and I am not sure what it is telling you? >Once it's dissolved or enough countries quit, There was quite a strong anti-EU stance here in Denmark until Brexit. As things are now, suggesting Denmark leave the union is political suicide. I imagine that trend is similar in other countries.
kwere 4y ago
because Europe is and will be for centuries an union of countries at best, look at UK, centuries later England has a lot of problems keeping all constituencies together, being forced to give up a lot of concessions, and that from a clear position of power. Same thing for Canada and Quebec.
GekkePrutser 4y ago
I think the EU is focusing mainly on the wrong things. Like the single market, making it easier for big business in the EU. But things that actually make lives better like standard welfare and healthcare are left to each country. Or a single-standard rail network that could really help reduce reliance on fossil fuels. Or standardised road rules and vehicle checks, taxes.. I've lived in 3 EU countries and it's a mess. There isn't a single anything for us normal people. I know it started as an economic block mainly intended to attract big business but now that it's a real union they're still focused on ticking off the business wishlist. It's a neoliberal's wet dream. But people with low opportunities like old people in Eastern Europe are worse off than in their communist times, and those are the ones that the populists like Orban are feeding off...
- gghhzzgghhzz 4y ago
  There's no power behind any of these ideas. Anything business related has the power of capital behind it, even the regulations and standards - some of the admittedly good - are the basic requirements of a taming a market to make it functional. Without a shared demos then there is no democratic mandate for them either. The massive tragedy of the EU is that they have spent 20 years or more dealing with the inbuilt contradictions of their single currency and self-imposed restrictions of their monetary policy. All of which has the effect of constraining public spending. When the 20 years could have been spent on a serious move to a green economy. It was culturally, socially and economically (having a tradition of social democracy which requires public spending) the place where this could have really taken off. Yet navel gazing, and now paying the geo-political price.
malermeister 4y ago
That's our motto after all - in varietate concordia. We acknowledge that we're different, but that doesn't mean we can't strengthen our cooperation. As a very pro-EU person, I think paradoxically, the only way to sustain our differences is by getting closer together - otherwise we'll all end up vassals of Russia, China or the US.

ginko 4y ago

>It's quite telling even the most pro-EU people are very opposed to creating anything resembling a real country. What makes you think that? I'm pro-EU and ideally I would like to see it turn into a full fledged country. The issue is that the general population doesn't want this (yet). >Once it's dissolved or enough countries quit, you'll probably see more real integration but on a smaller scale. It won't be dissolved.

auganov 4y ago
> What makes you think that? I'm pro-EU and ideally I would like to see it turn into a full fledged country. The issue is that the general population doesn't want this (yet). Disbanding the EU is also not popular with the general population, yet there are many people discussing it and non-trivial political factions supporting it (yes, often they're not serious about it, but still). Where are the people pushing for a common language? My impression is most staunch EU supporters aren't just not pushing for this - they'd actively try to prevent national languages from dying.
- ZeroGravitas 4y ago
  Several countries in the EU have multiple national languages, so it seems strange to expect an amalgamation of them all to only have one. https://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/european_languages.htm https://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/european_languages.ht...
  - auganov 4y ago
    You cannot have a real major powerful country if the people can't communicate with each other. You cannot have a people. All of these countries with multiple languages on the list are tiny, monolingual in practice or struggling with separatism/conflict. Most fit into into at least 2 of these 3 categories. And certainly none of them have 20+ official languages.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]

kristiandupont 4y ago

>It's quite telling even the most pro-EU people are very opposed to creating anything resembling a real country. I am both of those things and I am not sure what it is telling you? >Once it's dissolved or enough countries quit, There was quite a strong anti-EU stance here in Denmark until Brexit. As things are now, suggesting Denmark leave the union is political suicide. I imagine that trend is similar in other countries.

kwere 4y ago

because Europe is and will be for centuries an union of countries at best, look at UK, centuries later England has a lot of problems keeping all constituencies together, being forced to give up a lot of concessions, and that from a clear position of power. Same thing for Canada and Quebec.

GekkePrutser 4y ago

I think the EU is focusing mainly on the wrong things. Like the single market, making it easier for big business in the EU. But things that actually make lives better like standard welfare and healthcare are left to each country. Or a single-standard rail network that could really help reduce reliance on fossil fuels. Or standardised road rules and vehicle checks, taxes.. I've lived in 3 EU countries and it's a mess. There isn't a single anything for us normal people. I know it started as an economic block mainly intended to attract big business but now that it's a real union they're still focused on ticking off the business wishlist. It's a neoliberal's wet dream. But people with low opportunities like old people in Eastern Europe are worse off than in their communist times, and those are the ones that the populists like Orban are feeding off...

gghhzzgghhzz 4y ago
There's no power behind any of these ideas. Anything business related has the power of capital behind it, even the regulations and standards - some of the admittedly good - are the basic requirements of a taming a market to make it functional. Without a shared demos then there is no democratic mandate for them either. The massive tragedy of the EU is that they have spent 20 years or more dealing with the inbuilt contradictions of their single currency and self-imposed restrictions of their monetary policy. All of which has the effect of constraining public spending. When the 20 years could have been spent on a serious move to a green economy. It was culturally, socially and economically (having a tradition of social democracy which requires public spending) the place where this could have really taken off. Yet navel gazing, and now paying the geo-political price.

malermeister 4y ago

That's our motto after all - in varietate concordia. We acknowledge that we're different, but that doesn't mean we can't strengthen our cooperation. As a very pro-EU person, I think paradoxically, the only way to sustain our differences is by getting closer together - otherwise we'll all end up vassals of Russia, China or the US.