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> The key is to ensure that all willing and able European democracies have a clear and realistic path to membership or, if they do not want to join, an alternat

> The key is to ensure that all willing and able European democracies have a clear and realistic path to membership or, if they do not want to join, an alternative form of cooperation. When Russian Federation could still be called a democracy it did not have that. Have you read the Sleeping Beauty fairy tale?

gnulinux 4y ago
Turkey was also (briefly) a functioning democracy but it also never had a "realistic" path to membership, even though it was one of the older member candidates. Turkey still is a democracy on paper, and no one knows what will happen once Erdogan dies -- it's not impossible Turkey can become a functioning democracy again, but it's not clear to me if EU would be enthusiastic to re-start membership conversations with them. I think it makes sense that EU would want to see the country maintaining peace and prosperity for a while until they're more serious about membership. This is why the recent Ukraine membership deal will not work out any time soon, it's a long game.
AnimalMuppet 4y ago
Yes, we've read Sleeping Beauty. What's your point? Are you saying that Russia is Sleeping Beauty? If so, why? If not, then what are you saying?
Archelaos 4y ago
Regarding alternative forms of cooperation: From 1996 to 2022, Russia was a member of the Council of Europe.[1] I see no reason why a truly democratic and market-economy stable Russia could not become part of the EU. But I am also very pessimistic that I will live to see it, as much as I hope I will. Under these conditions, Russia could even join NATO. [1] See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia_in_the_Council_of_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia_in_the_Council_of_Europ...
- thriftwy 4y ago
  > I see no reason why a truly democratic and market-economy stable Russia could not become part of the EU. EU had plenty of time to prove it and did no real steps towards integration. Trying to drive a wedge between Russia and its neighbours at the same time. I'm not sure what membership in Council of Europe did for Russia. European Human Rights Court was somewhat visible but that's it.
  - Archelaos 4y ago
    > EU had plenty of time to prove it and did no real steps towards integration. Trying to drive a wedge between Russia and its neighbours at the same time. This is not true. Other counterexamples: Russia is a member of the Partnership for Peace[1] initiative. In the 1990s, when Russia was in a very bad economic situation, there was a lot of support for Russia from the EU, especially from ordinary people who sent aid packages or organised transport. I was myself shortly involved in a program to foster academic exchange with Lomonosov University. Fact is that democracy and free market economy never really took hold in Russia. After Gorbachev and Shevardnadze, what was there in the beginning could not grow but declined. Corruption was everywhere. Chechnya was turned into a slaughterhouse. To sum it up: There was absolutely no basis for a deep integration of Russia with EU. It is rather astonishing how much and for how long the EU has continued to engage with Russia over the last 20 years. > I'm not sure what membership in Council of Europe did for Russia. European Human Rights Court was somewhat visible but that's it. This was of great benefit to the people of Russia as it protected them from the excesses of an authoritarian regime. The future will show how much they have now lost. Freedom of expression no longer exists even rudimentarily in Russia. Many civil rights activists had to flee into the West during the last two decades. As a representative for many, I would just like to mention Garry Kasparov. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partnership_for_Peace https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partnership_for_Peace
    - thriftwy 4y ago
      > In the 1990s, when Russia was in a very bad economic situation, there was a lot of support for Russia from the EU From my experience you greatly overplay it. There was "some support" maybe, but definitely not "lots" of it. In 2000s Russia no longer was in a very bad economic situation. But there was no integration. Yes there were all kinds of bells and whistles, such as academic exchange this, international program that; but you know, you can have these with any country in the world. They're not life changing - they are just some peer things. Russian life was affected very little by its neighbourhood with the EU and no real integration took place. > Chechnya was turned into a slaughterhouse I don't think it is true (what would you compare it to, Bosnia or Yemen?). However, it does show the attitude which got us where we are now.

gnulinux 4y ago

Turkey was also (briefly) a functioning democracy but it also never had a "realistic" path to membership, even though it was one of the older member candidates. Turkey still is a democracy on paper, and no one knows what will happen once Erdogan dies -- it's not impossible Turkey can become a functioning democracy again, but it's not clear to me if EU would be enthusiastic to re-start membership conversations with them. I think it makes sense that EU would want to see the country maintaining peace and prosperity for a while until they're more serious about membership. This is why the recent Ukraine membership deal will not work out any time soon, it's a long game.

AnimalMuppet 4y ago

Yes, we've read Sleeping Beauty. What's your point? Are you saying that Russia is Sleeping Beauty? If so, why? If not, then what are you saying?

Archelaos 4y ago

Regarding alternative forms of cooperation: From 1996 to 2022, Russia was a member of the Council of Europe.[1] I see no reason why a truly democratic and market-economy stable Russia could not become part of the EU. But I am also very pessimistic that I will live to see it, as much as I hope I will. Under these conditions, Russia could even join NATO. [1] See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia_in_the_Council_of_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia_in_the_Council_of_Europ...

thriftwy 4y ago
> I see no reason why a truly democratic and market-economy stable Russia could not become part of the EU. EU had plenty of time to prove it and did no real steps towards integration. Trying to drive a wedge between Russia and its neighbours at the same time. I'm not sure what membership in Council of Europe did for Russia. European Human Rights Court was somewhat visible but that's it.
- Archelaos 4y ago
  > EU had plenty of time to prove it and did no real steps towards integration. Trying to drive a wedge between Russia and its neighbours at the same time. This is not true. Other counterexamples: Russia is a member of the Partnership for Peace[1] initiative. In the 1990s, when Russia was in a very bad economic situation, there was a lot of support for Russia from the EU, especially from ordinary people who sent aid packages or organised transport. I was myself shortly involved in a program to foster academic exchange with Lomonosov University. Fact is that democracy and free market economy never really took hold in Russia. After Gorbachev and Shevardnadze, what was there in the beginning could not grow but declined. Corruption was everywhere. Chechnya was turned into a slaughterhouse. To sum it up: There was absolutely no basis for a deep integration of Russia with EU. It is rather astonishing how much and for how long the EU has continued to engage with Russia over the last 20 years. > I'm not sure what membership in Council of Europe did for Russia. European Human Rights Court was somewhat visible but that's it. This was of great benefit to the people of Russia as it protected them from the excesses of an authoritarian regime. The future will show how much they have now lost. Freedom of expression no longer exists even rudimentarily in Russia. Many civil rights activists had to flee into the West during the last two decades. As a representative for many, I would just like to mention Garry Kasparov. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partnership_for_Peace https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partnership_for_Peace
  - thriftwy 4y ago
    > In the 1990s, when Russia was in a very bad economic situation, there was a lot of support for Russia from the EU From my experience you greatly overplay it. There was "some support" maybe, but definitely not "lots" of it. In 2000s Russia no longer was in a very bad economic situation. But there was no integration. Yes there were all kinds of bells and whistles, such as academic exchange this, international program that; but you know, you can have these with any country in the world. They're not life changing - they are just some peer things. Russian life was affected very little by its neighbourhood with the EU and no real integration took place. > Chechnya was turned into a slaughterhouse I don't think it is true (what would you compare it to, Bosnia or Yemen?). However, it does show the attitude which got us where we are now.