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you don’t know whether i contribute or not. introducing another language will create additional barriers for new driver developers. the kernel itself is alread

by b20000 4y ago

you don’t know whether i contribute or not. introducing another language will create additional barriers for new driver developers. the kernel itself is already complicated enough and the focus should be on better documentation for new developers and a more welcoming attitude in general to improving (read simplifying) APIs like ALSA-SoC, for example. and please don’t tell me that the docs in the kernel tree are good enough. as a device creator, i look at this from a completely different and more practical perspective than those who are obsessed about programming languages. in the end the kernel serves the hardware community and is not some kind of programming utopia to prove how smart you are.

webkike 4y ago
How will it add new barriers? You can still program your drivers in C.
- b20000 4y ago
  no, because sooner or later i will need to touch rust code when i work on drivers which means i need to learn the language and its constructs. i then have to maintain and keep up that know-how which adds more cost to my business. and the kernel is not going to become a 100% rust code base anytime soon.
  - mijoharas 4y ago
    > no, because sooner or later i will need to touch rust code when i work on drivers This is not the case and is not planned. Are you trying to make some kind of slippery slope argument or something?
mynameisash 4y ago
> you don’t know whether i contribute or not. Okay, so do you contribute? Because your wording here: >> i will lose all interest in ever contributing To me reads as a clear indication that you don't yet.
bitwize 4y ago
grug agree. focus should be on trap complexity demon, make easier for new grugs to contribute meaningfully to kernel. but. C is language created by grugs in 70s. programmers born in 90s, 2000s very different. wear "programming socks". think C very, very bad -- danger! rust is systems language for programming soxers. reality is, programming soxers now make big-BIG part of shamans in oss. like rust. want to rewrite everything in rust, think they can trap buffer overrun and use-after-free demons forever. grug think there are perfectly fine grug languages -- ada, even lisp -- can trap demons same-same. grug also think tools can help keep demons out of C code base. but momentum behind rust now. grugs who maintain kernel must meet developers where they are. if kernel grugs resist change, programming soxers refuse to join project. go to press, say "these CVEs could have been prevented had they used rust!" gruggernews say "well, they're not wrong..." linux lose face. lose base of new programmers. very bad for project.
- b20000 4y ago
  linux is now used in devices, it's not just a "server" operating system anymore like it was in the past. times have changed, and even though vulnerabilities are still important, they don't matter for many devices (e.g. portable game device not connected to the internet).
  - bitwize 4y ago
    Yes, times have changed; today, "game device" and "not connected to the internet" are almost a contradiction in terms. Besides, the makers of such devices want to stop the next Gary Bowser from finding an exploit that will let people run "homebrew" (read: pirated) games. The fact is that new developers (and many old ones) see C as too risky and difficult to work in now, meanwhile JavaScript kids are transitioning to Rust and writing code that's nearly as performant as your C code but with fewer bugs. As I like to say, Rust isn't for you... it's for your replacement.
  - mustache_kimono 4y ago
    > it's not just a "server" operating system anymore This is not much of an argument. Yes, you have another use case, and maybe memory safety bugs are not an issue for you (which -- you hear this a lot among C programmers until they are bitten). But also clearly that doesn't mean those bugs aren't an issue for everyone else, or that the Linux kernel should prize your POV over all others. Also, maybe your use is extremely limited? I mean "portable game device not connected to the internet" is pretty small share of the total Linux marketshare. It's probably a small share of the total Linux "portable game device" marketshare.

by b20000 4y ago

webkike 4y ago

How will it add new barriers? You can still program your drivers in C.

b20000 4y ago
no, because sooner or later i will need to touch rust code when i work on drivers which means i need to learn the language and its constructs. i then have to maintain and keep up that know-how which adds more cost to my business. and the kernel is not going to become a 100% rust code base anytime soon.
- mijoharas 4y ago
  > no, because sooner or later i will need to touch rust code when i work on drivers This is not the case and is not planned. Are you trying to make some kind of slippery slope argument or something?

mynameisash 4y ago

> you don’t know whether i contribute or not. Okay, so do you contribute? Because your wording here: >> i will lose all interest in ever contributing To me reads as a clear indication that you don't yet.

bitwize 4y ago

grug agree. focus should be on trap complexity demon, make easier for new grugs to contribute meaningfully to kernel. but. C is language created by grugs in 70s. programmers born in 90s, 2000s very different. wear "programming socks". think C very, very bad -- danger! rust is systems language for programming soxers. reality is, programming soxers now make big-BIG part of shamans in oss. like rust. want to rewrite everything in rust, think they can trap buffer overrun and use-after-free demons forever. grug think there are perfectly fine grug languages -- ada, even lisp -- can trap demons same-same. grug also think tools can help keep demons out of C code base. but momentum behind rust now. grugs who maintain kernel must meet developers where they are. if kernel grugs resist change, programming soxers refuse to join project. go to press, say "these CVEs could have been prevented had they used rust!" gruggernews say "well, they're not wrong..." linux lose face. lose base of new programmers. very bad for project.

b20000 4y ago
linux is now used in devices, it's not just a "server" operating system anymore like it was in the past. times have changed, and even though vulnerabilities are still important, they don't matter for many devices (e.g. portable game device not connected to the internet).
- bitwize 4y ago
  Yes, times have changed; today, "game device" and "not connected to the internet" are almost a contradiction in terms. Besides, the makers of such devices want to stop the next Gary Bowser from finding an exploit that will let people run "homebrew" (read: pirated) games. The fact is that new developers (and many old ones) see C as too risky and difficult to work in now, meanwhile JavaScript kids are transitioning to Rust and writing code that's nearly as performant as your C code but with fewer bugs. As I like to say, Rust isn't for you... it's for your replacement.
- mustache_kimono 4y ago
  > it's not just a "server" operating system anymore This is not much of an argument. Yes, you have another use case, and maybe memory safety bugs are not an issue for you (which -- you hear this a lot among C programmers until they are bitten). But also clearly that doesn't mean those bugs aren't an issue for everyone else, or that the Linux kernel should prize your POV over all others. Also, maybe your use is extremely limited? I mean "portable game device not connected to the internet" is pretty small share of the total Linux marketshare. It's probably a small share of the total Linux "portable game device" marketshare.