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People drink and take drugs because they enjoy it. What illegal activity are you proposing people will seek if drugs are medicinalized/legalized? Saying "oh th

People drink and take drugs because they enjoy it. What illegal activity are you proposing people will seek if drugs are medicinalized/legalized? Saying "oh they'll just move on" is a bit hand-wavey.

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
Avshalom 15y ago
Gun running, human trafficking, political corruption, extortion, kidnapping, straight up stealing shit, fencing, counterfeiting. You know all those crimes that aren't substance based. And depending on the terms of legalization, I'm sure drugs would always be a small part, whether that be black market to avoid taxes or prescription drugs.
- sliverstorm 15y ago
  We should probably legalize all those too. They'll go away.
  - r0s 15y ago
    This is hyperbolic, unreasonable and valueless.
    - sliverstorm 15y ago
      Or it could just be tongue-in-cheek
  - yters 15y ago
    I like the way you think! I had the same idea. What makes something a crime is that it is illegal. If we make everything legal then there isn't any crime! I know, I know, I'm a genius.
- robotresearcher 15y ago
  None of these things is as profitable as drugs. Tens of dollars per gram, of stuff that grows in the forest and requires but a little processing. There's nothing so profitable to move on to.
  - sliverstorm 15y ago
    Are you suggesting that the lower profits mean a crime ring can't be organized around them? Because history would disagree with you.
    - robotresearcher 15y ago
      Of course not. Just that a less profitable but still high-risk business is less attractive and likely to be pursued less vigorously and by fewer people. Which is the outcome we want. Zero tolerance is not eliminating crime, and it is extremely expensive.
      - rdl 15y ago
        Plus, most of the criminal activities organized crime goes into which aren't drugs have non-consenting victims -- like extortion, theft of vehicle cargoes, human smuggling (vs. domestic labor), etc. So it's easier for the law enforcement groups to ally with those victims against the organized crime groups.
    - potatolicious 15y ago
      No, what he (and I, I suppose) is suggesting is that without drugs criminal organizations lose their primary source of funding. They can move onto other, smaller pies, but ultimately it means a dramatic downsizing of organized crime and a consequent loss of influence. Which isn't to say that they won't run guns and traffick humans, but right now the problem in Latin America is that these criminal organizations practically run the government they are so large. Depriving them of the drug pie, the tobacco pie, the alcohol pie... they will have nothing they can turn to that will allow them to maintain their present level of governmental corruption.
- nikatwork 15y ago
  Market size. Drugs are relatively easy to produce and smuggle and have a massive community demand. Nothing else comes close. Added benefit: fewer drug-related prisoners being trained up as career criminals. EDIT: also, "people" refers to "people in the community taking drugs", not the gangs.
dhughes 15y ago
More like what illegal activity will criminals try if drugs are made legal. There are bars everywhere, cigarettes are everywhere so other than a little bootlegging of alcohol and cigs there isn't much profit in those things. Whatever people want and whatever makes criminals money is what they will try.
DanBC 15y ago
The UK situation with cigarettes might be useful to look at. Cigarettes are legal to buy for anyone over the age of 18 (was 16 until feb 2011). Average price per pack of 20 is between £5.50 and £7; most of that is (Over 80%) tax. High local prices, easy access to cheap foreign cigs (France is a couple of hours away and hypermarkets exist to sell alcohol and cigs to English day-trippers) mean that very many (1 in 5) cigarettes (and half of all hand rolling tobacco) smoked in the UK are smuggled or counterfeit. Worse, there's money to be made for criminal gangs smuggling counterfeit cigs. Cannabis is easy to grow. I support legalisation. But I am worried by the fact that criminal gangs already grow and distribute cannabis in the UK (sometimes using forced trafficked labour); by the possible harm to mental health; and by the weird culture of binge drinking and underage drinking in UK and how that would transfer to drug use. UK annual tax income: (http://www.the-tma.org.uk/tma-publications-research/facts-figures/tax-revenue-from-tobacco/ http://www.the-tma.org.uk/tma-publications-research/facts-fi...) Over 80% VAT and duties: (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/budget/8401996/Budget-2011-7-pack-of-cigarettes.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/budget/8401996/Budget-201...) Video report about blatant selling of smuggled cigs: (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-13101212 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-13101212) Organised crime in Scotland and their involvement in smuggled tobacco (with 1 in 5 and half of all hand rolling tobacco claim: (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-12219726 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-12219726)

People drink and take drugs because they enjoy it. What illegal activity are you proposing people will seek if drugs are medicinalized/legalized? Saying "oh they'll just move on" is a bit hand-wavey.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

Avshalom 15y ago

Gun running, human trafficking, political corruption, extortion, kidnapping, straight up stealing shit, fencing, counterfeiting. You know all those crimes that aren't substance based. And depending on the terms of legalization, I'm sure drugs would always be a small part, whether that be black market to avoid taxes or prescription drugs.

sliverstorm 15y ago
We should probably legalize all those too. They'll go away.
- r0s 15y ago
  This is hyperbolic, unreasonable and valueless.
  - sliverstorm 15y ago
    Or it could just be tongue-in-cheek
- yters 15y ago
  I like the way you think! I had the same idea. What makes something a crime is that it is illegal. If we make everything legal then there isn't any crime! I know, I know, I'm a genius.
robotresearcher 15y ago
None of these things is as profitable as drugs. Tens of dollars per gram, of stuff that grows in the forest and requires but a little processing. There's nothing so profitable to move on to.
- sliverstorm 15y ago
  Are you suggesting that the lower profits mean a crime ring can't be organized around them? Because history would disagree with you.
  - robotresearcher 15y ago
    Of course not. Just that a less profitable but still high-risk business is less attractive and likely to be pursued less vigorously and by fewer people. Which is the outcome we want. Zero tolerance is not eliminating crime, and it is extremely expensive.
    - rdl 15y ago
      Plus, most of the criminal activities organized crime goes into which aren't drugs have non-consenting victims -- like extortion, theft of vehicle cargoes, human smuggling (vs. domestic labor), etc. So it's easier for the law enforcement groups to ally with those victims against the organized crime groups.
  - potatolicious 15y ago
    No, what he (and I, I suppose) is suggesting is that without drugs criminal organizations lose their primary source of funding. They can move onto other, smaller pies, but ultimately it means a dramatic downsizing of organized crime and a consequent loss of influence. Which isn't to say that they won't run guns and traffick humans, but right now the problem in Latin America is that these criminal organizations practically run the government they are so large. Depriving them of the drug pie, the tobacco pie, the alcohol pie... they will have nothing they can turn to that will allow them to maintain their present level of governmental corruption.
nikatwork 15y ago
Market size. Drugs are relatively easy to produce and smuggle and have a massive community demand. Nothing else comes close. Added benefit: fewer drug-related prisoners being trained up as career criminals. EDIT: also, "people" refers to "people in the community taking drugs", not the gangs.

dhughes 15y ago

More like what illegal activity will criminals try if drugs are made legal. There are bars everywhere, cigarettes are everywhere so other than a little bootlegging of alcohol and cigs there isn't much profit in those things. Whatever people want and whatever makes criminals money is what they will try.

DanBC 15y ago

The UK situation with cigarettes might be useful to look at. Cigarettes are legal to buy for anyone over the age of 18 (was 16 until feb 2011). Average price per pack of 20 is between £5.50 and £7; most of that is (Over 80%) tax. High local prices, easy access to cheap foreign cigs (France is a couple of hours away and hypermarkets exist to sell alcohol and cigs to English day-trippers) mean that very many (1 in 5) cigarettes (and half of all hand rolling tobacco) smoked in the UK are smuggled or counterfeit. Worse, there's money to be made for criminal gangs smuggling counterfeit cigs. Cannabis is easy to grow. I support legalisation. But I am worried by the fact that criminal gangs already grow and distribute cannabis in the UK (sometimes using forced trafficked labour); by the possible harm to mental health; and by the weird culture of binge drinking and underage drinking in UK and how that would transfer to drug use. UK annual tax income: (http://www.the-tma.org.uk/tma-publications-research/facts-figures/tax-revenue-from-tobacco/ http://www.the-tma.org.uk/tma-publications-research/facts-fi...) Over 80% VAT and duties: (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/budget/8401996/Budget-2011-7-pack-of-cigarettes.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/budget/8401996/Budget-201...) Video report about blatant selling of smuggled cigs: (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-13101212 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-13101212) Organised crime in Scotland and their involvement in smuggled tobacco (with 1 in 5 and half of all hand rolling tobacco claim: (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-12219726 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-12219726)