5 ms·

Nicotine is a systemic toxin. I don’t think there’s really an ethical high ground to being pro-vape and anti-tobacco. It’s all bad. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.go

Nicotine is a systemic toxin. I don’t think there’s really an ethical high ground to being pro-vape and anti-tobacco. It’s all bad. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4363846/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4363846/

ziddoap 4y ago
All bad does not mean equally bad.
- keithwhor 4y ago
  Yes, I suppose an ounce of Draino is better to drink than a gallon. I can’t believe my original comment is being downvoted; I enjoy nicotine. I spent most of my early 20s smoking. It’s pure fantasy and intellectual dishonesty to label vaping as a healthier alternative to smoking. Either way you’re a slave to nicotine. Acknowledge it and be okay with it and the adverse health effects likely to strike you — heart disease, high blood pressure, stroke, kidney disease — or quit. But don’t lie to yourself that there’s any modicum of an argument to be made about healthy alternatives.
  - ziddoap 4y ago
    >I can’t believe my original comment is being downvoted I didn't downvote you, so I don't know, but if I were to hazard a guess as to why it's being downvoted it's the absolutist stance you are taking. Like most things in life, healthiness is a spectrum and your refusal to acknowledge that is frustrating. >It’s pure fantasy and intellectual dishonesty to label vaping as a healthier alternative to smoking. The current medical understanding disagrees. A few chemicals inhaled is better than a few thousand chemicals. John Hopkins Medicine, for example, explicitly agrees that vaping is less harmful than smoking [1], but both are still obviously worse than not inhaling anything and if you have the willpower to drop nicotine all-together, that is very obviously the best choice. >Blaha says “There’s almost no doubt that vaping exposes you to fewer toxic chemicals than smoking traditional cigarettes.” [1] https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-prevention/5-truths-you-need-to-know-about-vaping#:~:text=1%3A%20Vaping%20is%20less%20harmful,many%20of%20which%20are%20toxic https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-preventi....
    - keithwhor 4y ago
      You know instead of defending a toxic chemical on a message board you can just quit, right? The only dog I have in this fight is what you have graciously pointed out — that the “very obviously best choice” is to quit nicotine altogether. Kowtowing to nicotine pundits about health benefits of a toxic chemical ends with generations of adults slaves to said chemical, early deaths and ruined lives. I don’t do it and you shouldn’t either.
      - ziddoap 4y ago
        >You know instead of defending a toxic chemical on a message board you can just quit, right? Lol. I don't vape or smoke, what a weird assumption to make solely because I pointed out that something can be healthier without being healthy. For someone without a dog in this, you sure seem awfully eager here and elsewhere in the thread.
        keithwhor 4y ago
        Ah, the only thing more addictive than nicotine — online pedantry. I just said I do have a dog in this fight. You should too, it’s a major public health issue. Congrats on not smoking! Hope you keep it that way and encourage others to follow in your footsteps.
publicola1990 4y ago
Atleast vaping is free from the toxic mix of combustion from smoking. So atleast part of the risk of smoking is reduced in vaping.
krrrh 4y ago
Nicotine is being used as a treatment for cognitive decline and dementia. One example of a large on-going study: https://www.alzheimers.gov/clinical-trials/memory-improvement-through-nicotine-dosing-mind https://www.alzheimers.gov/clinical-trials/memory-improvemen... In the end we don’t really know if it makes more sense to be in favour of vape prohibition than alcohol prohibition. But pretending that vaping is in the same category as smoking in terms of potential harms is ignorant.
- keithwhor 4y ago
  Kids aren’t using nicotine to treat dementia — am I missing something?
  - krrrh 4y ago
    I was simply pointing out that your absolute statement that it’s “a systemic toxin” has holes in it since there are valid medical uses. I wasn’t claiming that nicotine use is appropriate for kids, although there are likely medical uses of small doses to provide sensory gating, and it’s also not at all uncommon for wizened psych nurses to tacitly encourage schizophrenics to smoke/vape since it can provide such a rapid self-administered de-escalation of symptoms. In cases like that and many which are less dramatic than full blown schizophrenia, it’s definitely preferable that vapes are more or as accessible than cigarettes. More to the point, most people use some sort of psychoactive drugs from time to time as methods of changing state or mood, and all have preferences for some over others. All too often we assume that other neurotypes don’t exist and that everyone else should be fine with our own preferred mixes of caffeine, alcohol, cannabis, research chemicals, plant medicines, etc.. Recognizing that if your own preferences are valid, that it’s likely others are too is a good forward step, and it’s arguable that vapes are less addictive and far less harmful than smoking, and are a win from a harm reduction perspective. We made a huge shift as a society from nicotine-dominant workforces to caffeine-dominant workforces. There’s no indication that the availability of vaping products is reversing that secular trend in any meaningful way.
    - keithwhor 4y ago
hash07e 4y ago
Nicotine has it uses and benefits. The abuse of that or the "cigarretization" is the problem. One thing is to get real organic tabbaco and smoke in small quantities not inhalling only getting nicotine thru gum lininings. About the benefits in cognition [1][4] alzheimers and parkinson [2], helping with covid [3] and even testosterone [5] Cigarretes + additives are very bad you can see the difference here [6]. Is tobbaco bad? yes. Is nicotine bad maybe. Is cigarrete bad? Yes very Is Cigar bad? Yes but not as cigarrete. TlDr -> Go for pure nicotine or cigars if you need neuroprotection. [1] - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1579636/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1579636/ [2] - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1859921/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1859921/ [3] - https://openres.ersjournals.com/content/7/2/00713-2020 https://openres.ersjournals.com/content/7/2/00713-2020 [4] - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9006184/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9006184/ [5] - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24457405/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24457405/ [6] - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29459935/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29459935/

ziddoap 4y ago

All bad does not mean equally bad.

keithwhor 4y ago
Yes, I suppose an ounce of Draino is better to drink than a gallon. I can’t believe my original comment is being downvoted; I enjoy nicotine. I spent most of my early 20s smoking. It’s pure fantasy and intellectual dishonesty to label vaping as a healthier alternative to smoking. Either way you’re a slave to nicotine. Acknowledge it and be okay with it and the adverse health effects likely to strike you — heart disease, high blood pressure, stroke, kidney disease — or quit. But don’t lie to yourself that there’s any modicum of an argument to be made about healthy alternatives.
- ziddoap 4y ago
  >I can’t believe my original comment is being downvoted I didn't downvote you, so I don't know, but if I were to hazard a guess as to why it's being downvoted it's the absolutist stance you are taking. Like most things in life, healthiness is a spectrum and your refusal to acknowledge that is frustrating. >It’s pure fantasy and intellectual dishonesty to label vaping as a healthier alternative to smoking. The current medical understanding disagrees. A few chemicals inhaled is better than a few thousand chemicals. John Hopkins Medicine, for example, explicitly agrees that vaping is less harmful than smoking [1], but both are still obviously worse than not inhaling anything and if you have the willpower to drop nicotine all-together, that is very obviously the best choice. >Blaha says “There’s almost no doubt that vaping exposes you to fewer toxic chemicals than smoking traditional cigarettes.” [1] https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-prevention/5-truths-you-need-to-know-about-vaping#:~:text=1%3A%20Vaping%20is%20less%20harmful,many%20of%20which%20are%20toxic https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-preventi....
  - keithwhor 4y ago
    You know instead of defending a toxic chemical on a message board you can just quit, right? The only dog I have in this fight is what you have graciously pointed out — that the “very obviously best choice” is to quit nicotine altogether. Kowtowing to nicotine pundits about health benefits of a toxic chemical ends with generations of adults slaves to said chemical, early deaths and ruined lives. I don’t do it and you shouldn’t either.
    - ziddoap 4y ago
      >You know instead of defending a toxic chemical on a message board you can just quit, right? Lol. I don't vape or smoke, what a weird assumption to make solely because I pointed out that something can be healthier without being healthy. For someone without a dog in this, you sure seem awfully eager here and elsewhere in the thread.
      - keithwhor 4y ago
        Ah, the only thing more addictive than nicotine — online pedantry. I just said I do have a dog in this fight. You should too, it’s a major public health issue. Congrats on not smoking! Hope you keep it that way and encourage others to follow in your footsteps.

publicola1990 4y ago

Atleast vaping is free from the toxic mix of combustion from smoking. So atleast part of the risk of smoking is reduced in vaping.

krrrh 4y ago

Nicotine is being used as a treatment for cognitive decline and dementia. One example of a large on-going study: https://www.alzheimers.gov/clinical-trials/memory-improvement-through-nicotine-dosing-mind https://www.alzheimers.gov/clinical-trials/memory-improvemen... In the end we don’t really know if it makes more sense to be in favour of vape prohibition than alcohol prohibition. But pretending that vaping is in the same category as smoking in terms of potential harms is ignorant.

keithwhor 4y ago
Kids aren’t using nicotine to treat dementia — am I missing something?
- krrrh 4y ago
  I was simply pointing out that your absolute statement that it’s “a systemic toxin” has holes in it since there are valid medical uses. I wasn’t claiming that nicotine use is appropriate for kids, although there are likely medical uses of small doses to provide sensory gating, and it’s also not at all uncommon for wizened psych nurses to tacitly encourage schizophrenics to smoke/vape since it can provide such a rapid self-administered de-escalation of symptoms. In cases like that and many which are less dramatic than full blown schizophrenia, it’s definitely preferable that vapes are more or as accessible than cigarettes. More to the point, most people use some sort of psychoactive drugs from time to time as methods of changing state or mood, and all have preferences for some over others. All too often we assume that other neurotypes don’t exist and that everyone else should be fine with our own preferred mixes of caffeine, alcohol, cannabis, research chemicals, plant medicines, etc.. Recognizing that if your own preferences are valid, that it’s likely others are too is a good forward step, and it’s arguable that vapes are less addictive and far less harmful than smoking, and are a win from a harm reduction perspective. We made a huge shift as a society from nicotine-dominant workforces to caffeine-dominant workforces. There’s no indication that the availability of vaping products is reversing that secular trend in any meaningful way.
  - keithwhor 4y ago

hash07e 4y ago

Nicotine has it uses and benefits. The abuse of that or the "cigarretization" is the problem. One thing is to get real organic tabbaco and smoke in small quantities not inhalling only getting nicotine thru gum lininings. About the benefits in cognition [1][4] alzheimers and parkinson [2], helping with covid [3] and even testosterone [5] Cigarretes + additives are very bad you can see the difference here [6]. Is tobbaco bad? yes. Is nicotine bad maybe. Is cigarrete bad? Yes very Is Cigar bad? Yes but not as cigarrete. TlDr -> Go for pure nicotine or cigars if you need neuroprotection. [1] - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1579636/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1579636/ [2] - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1859921/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1859921/ [3] - https://openres.ersjournals.com/content/7/2/00713-2020 https://openres.ersjournals.com/content/7/2/00713-2020 [4] - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9006184/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9006184/ [5] - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24457405/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24457405/ [6] - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29459935/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29459935/