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Also why is "teenagers did something" a good reason to restrict my freedom? I don't vape but teenagers also do dumb things with alcohol so I don't see how that

Also why is "teenagers did something" a good reason to restrict my freedom? I don't vape but teenagers also do dumb things with alcohol so I don't see how that is legal using that line of logic.

xeromal 4y ago
I'd be ok with JUULs available via a prescription or some means of controlling access besides relying on a gas station clerk to ward off fake IDs from a mob of children. Edit: I used the word prescription perhaps incorrectly. I believe something like a dispensary would work too. Just a higher standard than a gas station clerk.
- willcipriano 4y ago
  That again holds a lower standard for alcohol, a far more dangerous drug. You want to get a prescription for a bottle of wine?
  - ceejayoz 4y ago
    Alcohol is basically legal due to tradition. If you were starting a fresh-slate society, with no history and all the knowledge/technology we have today, you'd probably ban alcohol and legalize marijuana.
    - willcipriano 4y ago
      Tobacco use in America predates the United States. It was probably in use before alcohol. Also since when is "it's tradition" a defense for nonsensical public health policy?
      - krrrh 4y ago
        An important point here is that traditional use of nicotiana rustica was more far more widespread than nicotiana tabacum. This was a much more potent (higher concentration of nicotine), and people would smoke less and less frequently. The other recent announcement from the administration is to reduce the amount of nicotine in cigarettes which a lot of harm reduction specialists are concerned will result in more smoking rather than less.
      - ceejayoz 4y ago
        > Also since when is "it's tradition" a defense for nonsensical public health policy? It doesn't make for good public health policy, but as the pandemic made quite clear, the general population gets a pretty big say in it. People get pretty grumpy when you go against traditions, even for a good reason.
    - krrrh 4y ago
      Yet basically 100% of the societies started post agricultural revolution made alcohol central to their cultures. If it were such a no brainer you’d think that somewhere in the last 10,000 years a society would have found alcohol-free optimality, instead attempts at prohibition have mostly proven ruinous. The fact is that alcohol provides a huge number of social benefits to a huge number of people and it outweighs the harms. I’d probably prefer a cannabis-dominant culture myself, but it’s not for everyone.
      - ceejayoz 4y ago
        > Yet basically 100% of the societies started post agricultural revolution made alcohol central to their cultures. Yes, but because it provides a safer drinking supply. We've got water purification plants now.
- arrosenberg 4y ago
  Even if I agreed (I don’t), this is a solved problem with the dispensary model that weed uses. Requiring a prescription is absurd.
  - xeromal 4y ago
    That sounds acceptable. I'd be ok with JUULs hidden behind a dispensary.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    Yes because people don’t smoke weed and drink alcohol if they are underage. There is also no means to get weed cheaper illegally in states where it is legal
tablespoon 4y ago
> Also why is "teenagers did something" a good reason to restrict my freedom? I don't vape but teenagers also do dumb things with alcohol so I don't see how that is legal using that line of logic. It really depends on context and a lot of opinion and judgement where people can disagree. It's not some mechanical logic thing. Also (at least in the US) it's actually illegal for teenagers possess or consume alcohol.
vkou 4y ago
How about a simple compromise - ban all tobacco and vape marketing? You want to smoke? Vape? Fine. But let's not create a profit motive for anyone to actively work on getting people addicted to this shit.
woodruffw 4y ago
The short answer is that when teenagers drink alcohol, the majority don't become habitual heavy drinkers. Smoking in high school is a very strong predictor for life-long smoking, especially for heavy smoking. (The refrain about "freedom" is a matter of settled law, as far as I'm concerned.)
delusional 4y ago
Because nobody thinks drinking is the same as smoking. Asking why some rules are the way they are is a fantastic idea, but consider asking more interesting questions than "Why is X not like Y". Especially when the answer is just that they are different. Smoking bans is not about "doing something" or "doing dumb things", and if you abstract them up to that level in order to compare them you'll lose all fidelity in your question.

Also why is "teenagers did something" a good reason to restrict my freedom? I don't vape but teenagers also do dumb things with alcohol so I don't see how that is legal using that line of logic.

xeromal 4y ago

I'd be ok with JUULs available via a prescription or some means of controlling access besides relying on a gas station clerk to ward off fake IDs from a mob of children. Edit: I used the word prescription perhaps incorrectly. I believe something like a dispensary would work too. Just a higher standard than a gas station clerk.

willcipriano 4y ago
That again holds a lower standard for alcohol, a far more dangerous drug. You want to get a prescription for a bottle of wine?
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  Alcohol is basically legal due to tradition. If you were starting a fresh-slate society, with no history and all the knowledge/technology we have today, you'd probably ban alcohol and legalize marijuana.
  - willcipriano 4y ago
    Tobacco use in America predates the United States. It was probably in use before alcohol. Also since when is "it's tradition" a defense for nonsensical public health policy?
    - krrrh 4y ago
      An important point here is that traditional use of nicotiana rustica was more far more widespread than nicotiana tabacum. This was a much more potent (higher concentration of nicotine), and people would smoke less and less frequently. The other recent announcement from the administration is to reduce the amount of nicotine in cigarettes which a lot of harm reduction specialists are concerned will result in more smoking rather than less.
    - ceejayoz 4y ago
      > Also since when is "it's tradition" a defense for nonsensical public health policy? It doesn't make for good public health policy, but as the pandemic made quite clear, the general population gets a pretty big say in it. People get pretty grumpy when you go against traditions, even for a good reason.
  - krrrh 4y ago
    Yet basically 100% of the societies started post agricultural revolution made alcohol central to their cultures. If it were such a no brainer you’d think that somewhere in the last 10,000 years a society would have found alcohol-free optimality, instead attempts at prohibition have mostly proven ruinous. The fact is that alcohol provides a huge number of social benefits to a huge number of people and it outweighs the harms. I’d probably prefer a cannabis-dominant culture myself, but it’s not for everyone.
    - ceejayoz 4y ago
      > Yet basically 100% of the societies started post agricultural revolution made alcohol central to their cultures. Yes, but because it provides a safer drinking supply. We've got water purification plants now.
arrosenberg 4y ago
Even if I agreed (I don’t), this is a solved problem with the dispensary model that weed uses. Requiring a prescription is absurd.
- xeromal 4y ago
  That sounds acceptable. I'd be ok with JUULs hidden behind a dispensary.
- scarface74 4y ago
  Yes because people don’t smoke weed and drink alcohol if they are underage. There is also no means to get weed cheaper illegally in states where it is legal

tablespoon 4y ago

> Also why is "teenagers did something" a good reason to restrict my freedom? I don't vape but teenagers also do dumb things with alcohol so I don't see how that is legal using that line of logic. It really depends on context and a lot of opinion and judgement where people can disagree. It's not some mechanical logic thing. Also (at least in the US) it's actually illegal for teenagers possess or consume alcohol.

vkou 4y ago

How about a simple compromise - ban all tobacco and vape marketing? You want to smoke? Vape? Fine. But let's not create a profit motive for anyone to actively work on getting people addicted to this shit.

woodruffw 4y ago

The short answer is that when teenagers drink alcohol, the majority don't become habitual heavy drinkers. Smoking in high school is a very strong predictor for life-long smoking, especially for heavy smoking. (The refrain about "freedom" is a matter of settled law, as far as I'm concerned.)

delusional 4y ago

Because nobody thinks drinking is the same as smoking. Asking why some rules are the way they are is a fantastic idea, but consider asking more interesting questions than "Why is X not like Y". Especially when the answer is just that they are different. Smoking bans is not about "doing something" or "doing dumb things", and if you abstract them up to that level in order to compare them you'll lose all fidelity in your question.