3 ms·

I don't think that hacker news users would find criticism of a 'free-market utopia' a fun read, @PaulHoule. The average user seems to skew libertarian and often

I don't think that hacker news users would find criticism of a 'free-market utopia' a fun read, @PaulHoule. The average user seems to skew libertarian and often used to link or quote Paul Graham, whose solution to everything is encouraging startups. Poor? Go build a startup. Etc.

Ancapistani 4y ago
I strongly disagree. I don’t need to share the beliefs of an author to find their work interesting - and seeing my own belief system from the perspective of an ideological “opponent” is a pretty important tool in understanding the way I see the world.
asymmetric 4y ago
This being on the front page seems to contradict your argument.
xwdv 4y ago
For a person who is poor and has already exhausted other options for making money, starting a business is a great idea.
- MisterBastahrd 4y ago
  Right. Because if you're having trouble making ends meet, the thing to do is spend money you don't have on a venture that will likely fail.
  - DwnVoteHoneyPot 4y ago
    Right. Because a service based business doesn't need much capital.
    - js8 4y ago
      You mean, anybody can be a capitalist who cleans other people's shoes?
      - Joker_vD 4y ago
        Haven't you heard that the "gig economy" is the way to the Brighter Future™ (not really brighter, just advertised to be so)? So, there's the CEO of Clean Shoes International (coincidentally she's also the Worker of the Month, if you doubt her work ethics), happy to provide full B2B experience of shining footwear just for $0.05 per pair.
        MisterBastahrd 4y ago
        I rode with a gentleman once who decided he would become a full-time Uber driver after being laid off from his last gig, because he had children to support. He told me that he was renting the vehicles he drove for $300 a week. When I remarked that it seemed expensive, he said that it was vastly preferable to driving your own car and losing income because of breakdowns or servicing. He was driving over 100K miles a year, after all, and so he figured the depreciation from the mileage on whatever car he'd buy himself would be about as bad as the money he was paying for renting the cars. He'd drive one for a few weeks, and then they'd supply him with a different car to drive.
    - lovich 4y ago
      It needs time to start, where you are not profitable. If you are poor you do not have the capital reserves to try and attempt that sort of revenue change.
  - throwaway0a5e 4y ago
    The "white collar, grew up in a good school district" class that most of HN is from has a massive blind spot for what "starting a business" looks like at the low end. There all sorts of "cash only side gig" type activities you can do that provide enough income to pay for a shitty apartment, food, basic transportation, etc if you do them 40+hr/wk. The first few months are hard but you get better, build your network, get regular customers, etc and things stabilize. If you're starting with some marketable skill or specialized knowledge it's even faster.
    - lovich 4y ago
      > The "white collar, grew up in a good school district" class that most of HN is from has a massive blind spot for what "starting a business" looks like at the low end. Not all of us stayed in our school district during the day. I think the real missing ingredient people might not realize is here is crime. Small “businesses” like these or sole proprietorships routinely just skip legal requirements on things like paying taxes, not writing off things that aren’t legal to write off, permits, etc. When you cut out all that you can eke out a living doing the spot jobs. I would also quibble with the term “stabilize” as “stable as a single worker in a self owned business” != “stable as a worker in a multi person company”
      - throwaway0a5e 4y ago
        >I would also quibble with the term “stabilize” as “stable as a single worker in a self owned business” != “stable as a worker in a multi person company” More stable than those kinds of people would be if they got a McJob somewhere that treated them like just another disposable body.
        lovich 4y ago
        I don’t know that I’m convinced of that. They seem to be about the same economic status. The small business owners I’m referencing are weed dealers, car detailers, handyman, other unlicensed trades, etc compared to low level retail like McDonalds. The handymen seem to do the best out of the group but they are also very feast and famine whereas the retail workers may not get all the hours they want but it is much more consistent. Wage theft is also a threat in retail but the examples I’ve seen and experienced were a few hours here and there or a manager reclassifying your OT as not OT. The handymen routinely deal with partial or complete non payment by customers who basically dare them to try and get their money in court. I hadn’t considered the increase in retail wages over the past year either. The handymen I know have increased prices significantly but most of that has been sunk into parts and supplies that had a similar massive increase.
s_dev 4y ago
>Poor? Go build a startup. Etc. Well this is definitely not pg advice. For instance he makes very sure to categorize that it takes a certain mentality to be a founder and being a founder definitely isn't for everyone. On top of that he doesn't even recommend everyone join a startup -- he cites the likes of Microsoft as being a better option for certain people.

Ancapistani 4y ago

I strongly disagree. I don’t need to share the beliefs of an author to find their work interesting - and seeing my own belief system from the perspective of an ideological “opponent” is a pretty important tool in understanding the way I see the world.

asymmetric 4y ago

This being on the front page seems to contradict your argument.

xwdv 4y ago

For a person who is poor and has already exhausted other options for making money, starting a business is a great idea.

MisterBastahrd 4y ago
Right. Because if you're having trouble making ends meet, the thing to do is spend money you don't have on a venture that will likely fail.
- DwnVoteHoneyPot 4y ago
  Right. Because a service based business doesn't need much capital.
  - js8 4y ago
    You mean, anybody can be a capitalist who cleans other people's shoes?
    - Joker_vD 4y ago
      Haven't you heard that the "gig economy" is the way to the Brighter Future™ (not really brighter, just advertised to be so)? So, there's the CEO of Clean Shoes International (coincidentally she's also the Worker of the Month, if you doubt her work ethics), happy to provide full B2B experience of shining footwear just for $0.05 per pair.
      - MisterBastahrd 4y ago
        I rode with a gentleman once who decided he would become a full-time Uber driver after being laid off from his last gig, because he had children to support. He told me that he was renting the vehicles he drove for $300 a week. When I remarked that it seemed expensive, he said that it was vastly preferable to driving your own car and losing income because of breakdowns or servicing. He was driving over 100K miles a year, after all, and so he figured the depreciation from the mileage on whatever car he'd buy himself would be about as bad as the money he was paying for renting the cars. He'd drive one for a few weeks, and then they'd supply him with a different car to drive.
  - lovich 4y ago
    It needs time to start, where you are not profitable. If you are poor you do not have the capital reserves to try and attempt that sort of revenue change.
- throwaway0a5e 4y ago
  The "white collar, grew up in a good school district" class that most of HN is from has a massive blind spot for what "starting a business" looks like at the low end. There all sorts of "cash only side gig" type activities you can do that provide enough income to pay for a shitty apartment, food, basic transportation, etc if you do them 40+hr/wk. The first few months are hard but you get better, build your network, get regular customers, etc and things stabilize. If you're starting with some marketable skill or specialized knowledge it's even faster.
  - lovich 4y ago
    > The "white collar, grew up in a good school district" class that most of HN is from has a massive blind spot for what "starting a business" looks like at the low end. Not all of us stayed in our school district during the day. I think the real missing ingredient people might not realize is here is crime. Small “businesses” like these or sole proprietorships routinely just skip legal requirements on things like paying taxes, not writing off things that aren’t legal to write off, permits, etc. When you cut out all that you can eke out a living doing the spot jobs. I would also quibble with the term “stabilize” as “stable as a single worker in a self owned business” != “stable as a worker in a multi person company”
    - throwaway0a5e 4y ago
      >I would also quibble with the term “stabilize” as “stable as a single worker in a self owned business” != “stable as a worker in a multi person company” More stable than those kinds of people would be if they got a McJob somewhere that treated them like just another disposable body.
      - lovich 4y ago
        I don’t know that I’m convinced of that. They seem to be about the same economic status. The small business owners I’m referencing are weed dealers, car detailers, handyman, other unlicensed trades, etc compared to low level retail like McDonalds. The handymen seem to do the best out of the group but they are also very feast and famine whereas the retail workers may not get all the hours they want but it is much more consistent. Wage theft is also a threat in retail but the examples I’ve seen and experienced were a few hours here and there or a manager reclassifying your OT as not OT. The handymen routinely deal with partial or complete non payment by customers who basically dare them to try and get their money in court. I hadn’t considered the increase in retail wages over the past year either. The handymen I know have increased prices significantly but most of that has been sunk into parts and supplies that had a similar massive increase.

s_dev 4y ago

>Poor? Go build a startup. Etc. Well this is definitely not pg advice. For instance he makes very sure to categorize that it takes a certain mentality to be a founder and being a founder definitely isn't for everyone. On top of that he doesn't even recommend everyone join a startup -- he cites the likes of Microsoft as being a better option for certain people.