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If you make it pleasant to ride a bike - people will do it. Where I live, there is an off-street bike path that was completed about 10 years ago. Since then ma

If you make it pleasant to ride a bike - people will do it. Where I live, there is an off-street bike path that was completed about 10 years ago. Since then many new businesses have opened along the path. The economic impact of pulling people OUT OF A CAR and INTO THEIR environment is perhaps under-appreciated.

thedevelopnik 4y ago
Yeah Denver turned one of the residential roads in my neighborhood into an official bike road two years ago. They replaced stop signs with roundabouts, put up tons of signage, and where there are lights at major crossings they put sensors that are triggered by bikes. Even though it’s still shared with cars, it’s so much more pleasant and safe because they are more aware and polite. Went from biking being just a thing I do to get around to taking my son to and from school on his bike every day.
- postscapes1 4y ago
  Where in Denver is this? Am local here and most of the city is dismal for biking safely with kids
  - mediocregopher 4y ago
    They did this in a few places in caphill during covid, 16th and 11th being big examples. The cars have since been allowed back on those roads, though. Someone went tearing down 11th in their jeep at easily 50mph the other day, made me really really miss those days.
- aeolis_mons 4y ago
  Are you talking about 16th? Moving from NYC, I appreciated the island of sanity that street provides in Denver’s car-dominated cityscape.
  - belligeront 4y ago
    If so, I'm sad to say that the city recently removed the traffic calming on 16th ave https://denverite.com/2022/06/09/denver-installed-traffic-calming-infrastructure-that-stopped-wrecks-on-16th-ave-now-its-gone/ https://denverite.com/2022/06/09/denver-installed-traffic-ca...
ericmay 4y ago
> The economic impact of pulling people OUT OF A CAR and INTO THEIR environment is perhaps under-appreciated. All you have to do is stop and take a look at pictures where you see lots of people riding bikes or walking near businesses and then contrast that with a 4-lane road to get an idea of how much more economic activity is generated locally for a business. If you don't have an automobile industry (and even if you do) you are pillaging your own economic well-being by taking thousands of dollars from families and forcing them to send it to far away places that make cars and oil and gas when they could be spending it in their own neighborhoods and towns. It's fucking crazy that we do this. I don't know how much more emphasis I can put on it. Requiring people to drive a car 20 miles, 40 minutes, whatever to just live their lives is so stupid it defies belief. That's not to say you can't have a car (or two). It's to say that we shouldn't design all of our towns and cities around moving cars around instead of people. We're literally making ourselves poor trying to do this.
- nick_ 4y ago
  Won't somebody please think of the oil and car companies!
  - rob74 4y ago
    We don't have to think of them, the politicians already do (at least here in Germany)...
  - rayiner 4y ago
    Oil and car companies just sell a product that people want to buy. Toyota didn’t hold a gun to my head to get me to buy an SUV that gets 15 miles a gallon. Attacking them is an out to avoid confronting the real issue, which is that you don’t like the life choices most other Americans are making.
    - stephen_g 4y ago
      There’s actually some interesting history about how over decades and decades the oil and car companies have done a lot of things beyond just strongly lobbying for planning laws that were extremely good for car drivers and not good for other modes of transport, but even did stuff many years ago like buying up trolly bus and streetcar lines in many cities, ripping up the rails and wires and replacing them with diesel busses. So it’s not quite as consumer-led as you say, the way cities have been designed and have evolved (including in a lot of ways many people now acknowledge is pretty crappy) has actually been affected quite significantly by people who want to sell you cars and gasoline. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_consp... for example.
dangus 4y ago
This is a great and underrated point: high-speed traffic avenues are terrible for business. As a retail business, you want to be in a place where actual humans are there and moving slowly enough to lay eyes on your storefront. The only way it works for stroad big box developments are giant ugly signs designed to be visible for miles. Even then, someone might just decide to drive on by rather than dealing with a two-way center left turn lane against two lanes of oncoming traffic.
- bombcar 4y ago
  The other thing to remember is that cars can drive around, parking can be in the rear, etc - there's no reason to dedicate the prime real-estate to parking of all things. And when buildings face the road and are closer to it, it becomes more walkable and rideable. You're more likely to slip into a store if it's up against the sidewalk than if you have to cross an acre of parking to get to it.
jeffbee 4y ago
The problem is excessive deference by local authorities to incumbent business operators. Often the businesses have no idea how their customers get to their store. They assume everyone drives, but careful observational surveys often disprove this idea. This was shown conclusively in Toronto and Oakland by before/after studies. Governments shouldn't revere the input of local business operators. They should study the evidence and act rationally.
dionidium 4y ago
The belief that the opposite is true is so entrenched that business owners in Manhattan vehemently opposed banning cars on 14th St for fear that it would devastate their businesses. Of course, nothing of the sort happened. The cars were banned and nothing happened except that the street got a lot quieter and safer.
- colpabar 4y ago
  This attitude is common in my city as well. So many people seem to think that if you cannot park directly in front of a business then that business will fail.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    The list of businesses directly affected by proximity to traffic consists of: 1. Gas stations Everything else does better when the storefront is nearer the road, assuming all things else are equal (ie., rear parking vs front parking). However, to do this right you often need two entrances for the business, which can complicate things.
  - datavirtue 4y ago
    Typical seat-of-the-pants, non-data-driven business thinking. Knee jerk pablum.
  - mcv 4y ago
    Well, maybe if I can't park my bike directly in front of it. But there's never enough space for all the cars of all the customers; car drivers are used to having to walk the last bit.
  - skrbjc 4y ago
    Considering the number of food-delivery cars constantly double parked along the restaurant-dense streets of my area, the restaurants would probably lose a fair bit of business if cars couldn't access them.
    - pgodzin 4y ago
gonzo41 4y ago
Yep yep yep, add an electric bike to the mix and you've gotta winner EV for the people that gets over the range concern so many have.
AlwaysRock 4y ago
Yeah pretty simple. I've lived in places where I biked almost everywhere and placed where I've been scared to even get on a bike. Biking is my preferred way of getting around a city but some cities invite bikers and others dont.
AlecSchueler 4y ago
> If you make it pleasant to ride a bike - people will do it. There's a lovely saying in Dutch urban design circles, "Build for the traffic you want, not the traffic you have."
mc32 4y ago
I don't know if that's a lot of return on investment over six years. I love being able to bike in protected bike lanes but the numbers, I would say, are dismal: >"While the growth rate change during each year was modest, the accumulated impact over the study period was more substantial – a growth rate in bicycle counts of 69% over the 6-year study period. Locations with an on-street bike lane, also showed growth though at a lower rate than protected bikeways. On average, these on-street bike lane locations saw 99 more cyclists on average during the peak period and a similar rate of increase in ridership over time compared to locations without facilities (26% increase over 6 years)."
dominotw 4y ago
> If you make it pleasant to ride a bike - people will do it. Just to put this context < 100 more people "did it". 138 -> 211 isn't significant at all. Also 138 was on day with 55 deg weather and 211 was on 75 deg weather. more people ride bikes on a perfect 75deg day.
- bombcar 4y ago
  73 "car trips" saved is still a valuable metric; that can make/break other roads and reduce traffic overall.
john61 4y ago
It is also much more intersiting for the biker. On many occasions I met people or interesting art / shops etc. while biking, I would have missing those travling by car or bus. You are much more connected to your environment. You do not need an artificial entertainment system, the world itself is your entertainment, as it should be.
- bombcar 4y ago
  Slow travel is like going to a bookstore to get the latest O'Reilly book. If you walk or ride your bike to your destination, you're traveling slow enough to notice what you're passing, and you may notice something you've never seen before, or stop in at a store you've always passed on by, just like walking to the tech section in the bookstore would take you past all the other rows of books, which have a chance of catching your eye. If you drive, you're going to your destination and are unlikely to be derailed or sidetracked, just like ordering a book from Amazon doesn't get much visibility into anything else, even with all their AI.
  - em-bee 4y ago
    a documentary i saw recently about biking in germany reported exactly this observation about i think copenhagen, where it was noticed that bike riders shop more impulsively because when they see something, they can just stop and get it, whereas car drivers have to find a place to park, and then walk to the shop, which means they will mostly focus on their original destination, and won't allow themselves to be sidetracked. the faster speed and need to focus on traffic also makes it less likely to even pay attention to the shops they are passing.
    - bombcar 4y ago
      Yep, and cars also cause "false economy" where you'll spend a good dollar's worth of gas and wear-and-tear to go a bit further to the store where you can save fifty cents. Walking or biking suddenly makes that a matter of time savings and more noticeable.

thedevelopnik 4y ago

Yeah Denver turned one of the residential roads in my neighborhood into an official bike road two years ago. They replaced stop signs with roundabouts, put up tons of signage, and where there are lights at major crossings they put sensors that are triggered by bikes. Even though it’s still shared with cars, it’s so much more pleasant and safe because they are more aware and polite. Went from biking being just a thing I do to get around to taking my son to and from school on his bike every day.

postscapes1 4y ago
Where in Denver is this? Am local here and most of the city is dismal for biking safely with kids
- mediocregopher 4y ago
  They did this in a few places in caphill during covid, 16th and 11th being big examples. The cars have since been allowed back on those roads, though. Someone went tearing down 11th in their jeep at easily 50mph the other day, made me really really miss those days.
aeolis_mons 4y ago
Are you talking about 16th? Moving from NYC, I appreciated the island of sanity that street provides in Denver’s car-dominated cityscape.
- belligeront 4y ago
  If so, I'm sad to say that the city recently removed the traffic calming on 16th ave https://denverite.com/2022/06/09/denver-installed-traffic-calming-infrastructure-that-stopped-wrecks-on-16th-ave-now-its-gone/ https://denverite.com/2022/06/09/denver-installed-traffic-ca...

ericmay 4y ago

> The economic impact of pulling people OUT OF A CAR and INTO THEIR environment is perhaps under-appreciated. All you have to do is stop and take a look at pictures where you see lots of people riding bikes or walking near businesses and then contrast that with a 4-lane road to get an idea of how much more economic activity is generated locally for a business. If you don't have an automobile industry (and even if you do) you are pillaging your own economic well-being by taking thousands of dollars from families and forcing them to send it to far away places that make cars and oil and gas when they could be spending it in their own neighborhoods and towns. It's fucking crazy that we do this. I don't know how much more emphasis I can put on it. Requiring people to drive a car 20 miles, 40 minutes, whatever to just live their lives is so stupid it defies belief. That's not to say you can't have a car (or two). It's to say that we shouldn't design all of our towns and cities around moving cars around instead of people. We're literally making ourselves poor trying to do this.

nick_ 4y ago
Won't somebody please think of the oil and car companies!
- rob74 4y ago
  We don't have to think of them, the politicians already do (at least here in Germany)...
- rayiner 4y ago
  Oil and car companies just sell a product that people want to buy. Toyota didn’t hold a gun to my head to get me to buy an SUV that gets 15 miles a gallon. Attacking them is an out to avoid confronting the real issue, which is that you don’t like the life choices most other Americans are making.
  - stephen_g 4y ago
    There’s actually some interesting history about how over decades and decades the oil and car companies have done a lot of things beyond just strongly lobbying for planning laws that were extremely good for car drivers and not good for other modes of transport, but even did stuff many years ago like buying up trolly bus and streetcar lines in many cities, ripping up the rails and wires and replacing them with diesel busses. So it’s not quite as consumer-led as you say, the way cities have been designed and have evolved (including in a lot of ways many people now acknowledge is pretty crappy) has actually been affected quite significantly by people who want to sell you cars and gasoline. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_consp... for example.

dangus 4y ago

This is a great and underrated point: high-speed traffic avenues are terrible for business. As a retail business, you want to be in a place where actual humans are there and moving slowly enough to lay eyes on your storefront. The only way it works for stroad big box developments are giant ugly signs designed to be visible for miles. Even then, someone might just decide to drive on by rather than dealing with a two-way center left turn lane against two lanes of oncoming traffic.

bombcar 4y ago
The other thing to remember is that cars can drive around, parking can be in the rear, etc - there's no reason to dedicate the prime real-estate to parking of all things. And when buildings face the road and are closer to it, it becomes more walkable and rideable. You're more likely to slip into a store if it's up against the sidewalk than if you have to cross an acre of parking to get to it.

jeffbee 4y ago

The problem is excessive deference by local authorities to incumbent business operators. Often the businesses have no idea how their customers get to their store. They assume everyone drives, but careful observational surveys often disprove this idea. This was shown conclusively in Toronto and Oakland by before/after studies. Governments shouldn't revere the input of local business operators. They should study the evidence and act rationally.

dionidium 4y ago

The belief that the opposite is true is so entrenched that business owners in Manhattan vehemently opposed banning cars on 14th St for fear that it would devastate their businesses. Of course, nothing of the sort happened. The cars were banned and nothing happened except that the street got a lot quieter and safer.

colpabar 4y ago
This attitude is common in my city as well. So many people seem to think that if you cannot park directly in front of a business then that business will fail.
- bombcar 4y ago
  The list of businesses directly affected by proximity to traffic consists of: 1. Gas stations Everything else does better when the storefront is nearer the road, assuming all things else are equal (ie., rear parking vs front parking). However, to do this right you often need two entrances for the business, which can complicate things.
- datavirtue 4y ago
  Typical seat-of-the-pants, non-data-driven business thinking. Knee jerk pablum.
- mcv 4y ago
  Well, maybe if I can't park my bike directly in front of it. But there's never enough space for all the cars of all the customers; car drivers are used to having to walk the last bit.
- skrbjc 4y ago
  Considering the number of food-delivery cars constantly double parked along the restaurant-dense streets of my area, the restaurants would probably lose a fair bit of business if cars couldn't access them.
  - pgodzin 4y ago

gonzo41 4y ago

Yep yep yep, add an electric bike to the mix and you've gotta winner EV for the people that gets over the range concern so many have.

AlwaysRock 4y ago

Yeah pretty simple. I've lived in places where I biked almost everywhere and placed where I've been scared to even get on a bike. Biking is my preferred way of getting around a city but some cities invite bikers and others dont.

AlecSchueler 4y ago

> If you make it pleasant to ride a bike - people will do it. There's a lovely saying in Dutch urban design circles, "Build for the traffic you want, not the traffic you have."

mc32 4y ago

I don't know if that's a lot of return on investment over six years. I love being able to bike in protected bike lanes but the numbers, I would say, are dismal: >"While the growth rate change during each year was modest, the accumulated impact over the study period was more substantial – a growth rate in bicycle counts of 69% over the 6-year study period. Locations with an on-street bike lane, also showed growth though at a lower rate than protected bikeways. On average, these on-street bike lane locations saw 99 more cyclists on average during the peak period and a similar rate of increase in ridership over time compared to locations without facilities (26% increase over 6 years)."

dominotw 4y ago

> If you make it pleasant to ride a bike - people will do it. Just to put this context < 100 more people "did it". 138 -> 211 isn't significant at all. Also 138 was on day with 55 deg weather and 211 was on 75 deg weather. more people ride bikes on a perfect 75deg day.

bombcar 4y ago
73 "car trips" saved is still a valuable metric; that can make/break other roads and reduce traffic overall.

john61 4y ago

It is also much more intersiting for the biker. On many occasions I met people or interesting art / shops etc. while biking, I would have missing those travling by car or bus. You are much more connected to your environment. You do not need an artificial entertainment system, the world itself is your entertainment, as it should be.

bombcar 4y ago
Slow travel is like going to a bookstore to get the latest O'Reilly book. If you walk or ride your bike to your destination, you're traveling slow enough to notice what you're passing, and you may notice something you've never seen before, or stop in at a store you've always passed on by, just like walking to the tech section in the bookstore would take you past all the other rows of books, which have a chance of catching your eye. If you drive, you're going to your destination and are unlikely to be derailed or sidetracked, just like ordering a book from Amazon doesn't get much visibility into anything else, even with all their AI.
- em-bee 4y ago
  a documentary i saw recently about biking in germany reported exactly this observation about i think copenhagen, where it was noticed that bike riders shop more impulsively because when they see something, they can just stop and get it, whereas car drivers have to find a place to park, and then walk to the shop, which means they will mostly focus on their original destination, and won't allow themselves to be sidetracked. the faster speed and need to focus on traffic also makes it less likely to even pay attention to the shops they are passing.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    Yep, and cars also cause "false economy" where you'll spend a good dollar's worth of gas and wear-and-tear to go a bit further to the store where you can save fifty cents. Walking or biking suddenly makes that a matter of time savings and more noticeable.