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I really like rust, but I really don't like how much adoption it's getting. Rust is better than basically everything else out there, but it still really feels l

I really like rust, but I really don't like how much adoption it's getting. Rust is better than basically everything else out there, but it still really feels like a stepping stone language during a time of rapid language development. Even single threaded synchronous rust has its issues and it really feels like one or two more steps will get us to a significantly better place and getting rust adopted everywhere will just come and bite us in the end. Also, GCC should fix their stupid libjitgcc so new languages can use it reasonably instead of making everyone use llvm and then complain that there is no gcc implementation

kllrnohj 4y ago
So you know rust is the best fit, but you don't like it because of... vague reasons? Rust is the first compelling systems language since C++. This isn't an area with much attention paid to it. What is this a stepping stone towards? Zig is the only other thing that seems to get brought up, but it's not bringing any new ideas to the table. Certainly nothing close to what Rust is doing with the lifecycle checker. But why should Linux, or anyone really, let future promises block meaningful improvements today? If something comes along that's better than Rust for this, then another adoption/migration process can happen.
- lostmsu 4y ago
  Rust needs better debugging support. A huge gap is inability to call arbitrary trait methods in expression evaluators. The issue is really starting considering you can't even call Debug's fmt.
  - monocasa 4y ago
    Kernel developers aren't using a repl, and in fact straight up were hostile to kgdb to even attach a debugger for a long time.
- 3836293648 4y ago
  Maybe it's because I just started paying attention recently, but I'm seeing new approaches to the memory safety issue on r/ProgrammingLanguages every other week. Just off the top of my head, Vale looks interesting. But it's clearly under active research, even if it's not super visible
vkazanov 4y ago
And what is wrong with libgccjit? It's not hugely popular, yes, but there are some use examples, i.e. Emacs.
- 3836293648 4y ago
  Documentation and the number of patches every project I've seen try to use it has needed to send.
rkangel 4y ago
I know what you mean - there is potential for something even better. That said, having something that actually is better than C/C++, and having it become widely known accepted enough that I don't really have to justify using it at work is really good. And Rust will smooth the path for other language in the systems space. Rust had to work extra had because there has only be one dominant (pair of) languages for so long. Now that people have got used to choosing, hopefully it'll be easier next time for Rust++ or whatever.
the_duke 4y ago
I get your point, and I'm sympathetic because I had similar thoughts. But building a successful language and ecosystem takes a combination of visionary initiators, dedicated contributors, money, a significant value add, luck , and lots of time. Rust has warts that could be done better by a newer language. There are some interesting experiments, but I don't know of any language that would fit the bill right now. And if that language emerges it will need many years and probably a corporate backer to reach the level of maturity required for critical workloads like the kernel. The world shouldn't be limited to C for another 10 years.
ncmncm 4y ago
It is correct to suspect that Rust will turn out to be a transitional language. If Rust fizzled (still very possible!) it would be embarrassing, and maybe troublesome.

kllrnohj 4y ago

So you know rust is the best fit, but you don't like it because of... vague reasons? Rust is the first compelling systems language since C++. This isn't an area with much attention paid to it. What is this a stepping stone towards? Zig is the only other thing that seems to get brought up, but it's not bringing any new ideas to the table. Certainly nothing close to what Rust is doing with the lifecycle checker. But why should Linux, or anyone really, let future promises block meaningful improvements today? If something comes along that's better than Rust for this, then another adoption/migration process can happen.

lostmsu 4y ago
Rust needs better debugging support. A huge gap is inability to call arbitrary trait methods in expression evaluators. The issue is really starting considering you can't even call Debug's fmt.
- monocasa 4y ago
  Kernel developers aren't using a repl, and in fact straight up were hostile to kgdb to even attach a debugger for a long time.
3836293648 4y ago
Maybe it's because I just started paying attention recently, but I'm seeing new approaches to the memory safety issue on r/ProgrammingLanguages every other week. Just off the top of my head, Vale looks interesting. But it's clearly under active research, even if it's not super visible

vkazanov 4y ago

And what is wrong with libgccjit? It's not hugely popular, yes, but there are some use examples, i.e. Emacs.

3836293648 4y ago
Documentation and the number of patches every project I've seen try to use it has needed to send.

rkangel 4y ago

I know what you mean - there is potential for something even better. That said, having something that actually is better than C/C++, and having it become widely known accepted enough that I don't really have to justify using it at work is really good. And Rust will smooth the path for other language in the systems space. Rust had to work extra had because there has only be one dominant (pair of) languages for so long. Now that people have got used to choosing, hopefully it'll be easier next time for Rust++ or whatever.

the_duke 4y ago

I get your point, and I'm sympathetic because I had similar thoughts. But building a successful language and ecosystem takes a combination of visionary initiators, dedicated contributors, money, a significant value add, luck , and lots of time. Rust has warts that could be done better by a newer language. There are some interesting experiments, but I don't know of any language that would fit the bill right now. And if that language emerges it will need many years and probably a corporate backer to reach the level of maturity required for critical workloads like the kernel. The world shouldn't be limited to C for another 10 years.

ncmncm 4y ago

It is correct to suspect that Rust will turn out to be a transitional language. If Rust fizzled (still very possible!) it would be embarrassing, and maybe troublesome.