6 ms·

Is this fair use? I don't think that's been established yet. And if it is why didn't MS and OpenAI train it on their private code repositories? Fair use for the

Is this fair use? I don't think that's been established yet. And if it is why didn't MS and OpenAI train it on their private code repositories? Fair use for thee not for me isn't very in keeping with the spirit of that claim.

jimnotgym 4y ago
Just because there has not been a test case yet does not make it illegal! If MS think it is fair use then they are free to go ahead. Business is all about recognising and assesing risks like this.
- tremon 4y ago
  And even if there had been a legal test case, that does not make it moral! If people think this is socially wrong then they're free to argue their case. Business is all about ignoring ethical quandaries if it gives them an edge. "Microsoft does it, therefore it must be right" does not a sound argument make.
  - aaaaaaaaata 4y ago
    > Business is all about ignoring ethical quandaries No, businesses are — not business. Not necessarily...
- jtdev 4y ago
jimnotgym 4y ago
I sometimes read people's open source code on github and use the ideas from that to develop my own ideas. In fact sometimes I copy and paste short passages and then rework them. I also employ a team of people who may do the same. Is that fair use, yes of course it is. Is co-pilot automating that fair use, I would say so.
- aahortwwy 4y ago
  Microsoft's internal policies don't allow their employees to do this without legal approval.
  - aaaaaaaaata 4y ago
    So they don't ask.
    - leereeves 4y ago
      I think aahortwwy's point was that Microsoft won't permit their own employees to do what Copilot does.
- nirvdrum 4y ago
  Many people would claim what you're doing is a derivative work. I'm not sure the "of course it is" is very clear-cut (at least in the US). I've worked at big companies that have lawyers that care very much about this topic and what you're describing is prohibited. But, maybe it's different if you're not distributing your source.
  - zarzavat 4y ago
    > I've worked at big companies that have lawyers that care very much about this topic and what you're describing is prohibited. They are doing this to make sure that any lawsuit can be easily dismissed. It has nothing to do with the legality of the action (which sounds like fair use as the parent described it), and everything to do with the expense of a potential lawsuit compared to the cost effectiveness of simply telling developers “don’t do that”. Most people think that the law has two shades: lawful vs unlawful. But the more practical distinction is expensive lawsuit vs dismissed lawsuit. This is the lens through which corporate lawyers see copyright and it might explain why so many programmers think that copilot is “obviously” breaking the law and “stealing” their code.
    - nirvdrum 4y ago
matharmin 4y ago
For public repositories, whether copying small parts of code is considered fair use is just a copyright question. On the other hand, if you copy from private repositories, it quickly gets into the territory of stealing trade secrets.
komadori 4y ago
Gosh, can you imagine if they had trained it on their internal source code repositories and it constantly suggested using Hungarian notation for your variables? ;-)

jimnotgym 4y ago

Just because there has not been a test case yet does not make it illegal! If MS think it is fair use then they are free to go ahead. Business is all about recognising and assesing risks like this.

tremon 4y ago
And even if there had been a legal test case, that does not make it moral! If people think this is socially wrong then they're free to argue their case. Business is all about ignoring ethical quandaries if it gives them an edge. "Microsoft does it, therefore it must be right" does not a sound argument make.
- aaaaaaaaata 4y ago
  > Business is all about ignoring ethical quandaries No, businesses are — not business. Not necessarily...
jtdev 4y ago

jimnotgym 4y ago

I sometimes read people's open source code on github and use the ideas from that to develop my own ideas. In fact sometimes I copy and paste short passages and then rework them. I also employ a team of people who may do the same. Is that fair use, yes of course it is. Is co-pilot automating that fair use, I would say so.

aahortwwy 4y ago
Microsoft's internal policies don't allow their employees to do this without legal approval.
- aaaaaaaaata 4y ago
  So they don't ask.
  - leereeves 4y ago
    I think aahortwwy's point was that Microsoft won't permit their own employees to do what Copilot does.
nirvdrum 4y ago
Many people would claim what you're doing is a derivative work. I'm not sure the "of course it is" is very clear-cut (at least in the US). I've worked at big companies that have lawyers that care very much about this topic and what you're describing is prohibited. But, maybe it's different if you're not distributing your source.
- zarzavat 4y ago
  > I've worked at big companies that have lawyers that care very much about this topic and what you're describing is prohibited. They are doing this to make sure that any lawsuit can be easily dismissed. It has nothing to do with the legality of the action (which sounds like fair use as the parent described it), and everything to do with the expense of a potential lawsuit compared to the cost effectiveness of simply telling developers “don’t do that”. Most people think that the law has two shades: lawful vs unlawful. But the more practical distinction is expensive lawsuit vs dismissed lawsuit. This is the lens through which corporate lawyers see copyright and it might explain why so many programmers think that copilot is “obviously” breaking the law and “stealing” their code.
  - nirvdrum 4y ago

matharmin 4y ago

For public repositories, whether copying small parts of code is considered fair use is just a copyright question. On the other hand, if you copy from private repositories, it quickly gets into the territory of stealing trade secrets.

komadori 4y ago

Gosh, can you imagine if they had trained it on their internal source code repositories and it constantly suggested using Hungarian notation for your variables? ;-)