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Doesn't mean you can't be punished for the actions of the government though. See: Western companies and government pulling out of Russia or issuing sanctions on

Doesn't mean you can't be punished for the actions of the government though. See: Western companies and government pulling out of Russia or issuing sanctions on private individuals. I think it's even worse to say "we don't think you're guilty, but we do think you should be punished."

baxtr 4y ago
"We want to punish you" and "We don't want to make business with you" are two very different things IMHO.
- pastacacioepepe 4y ago
  If you go out of your way to not do business with someone, in order to cripple them economically, then it is a punishment.
  - baxtr 4y ago
    If you want to define punishment like that, it is your call. In my opinion it is not punishment to stop a relationship if the basis of that relationship was destroyed deliberately by one side.
    - pastacacioepepe 4y ago
      I don't define it, it's exactly the official definition, like it or not: > punishment: the infliction or imposition of a penalty as retribution for an offence. Then you can play all you want with language to make it say what you'd like but it's pointless.
      - baxtr 4y ago
        An "offence" as defined in a criminal code? Two countries don't share a criminal code AFAIK.
        pastacacioepepe 4y ago
        Why do I have to keep looking up dictionary definitions for you? And why do you keep playing futile language games? Spoiler: you are still wrong.
  - layer8 4y ago
    The purpose is deterrence, not punishment.
    - pastacacioepepe 4y ago
      And yet sanctions never work as a deterrent. Cuba is still socialist after 60 years of sanctions. Great deterrent! No, sanctions just punish generation after generation of innocent people and serve no other purpose. If you still mantain that the purpose is deterrence, then you must be a fool or worse, since it never works! Can't you learn from the past? Edit: Before you even dig out some article like this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/04/28/13-times-that-economic-sanctions-really-worked/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/04/28... I will make an important point: sanctions CAN work only to prevent something from happening. Once that happened, e.g. the war started, there's no sanction that can stop it and that's exactly when sanctions stop being a deterrent and start being a punishment.
      - trasz 4y ago
        And the fact that Russia is not capable of manufacturing tanks anymore has nothing to do whatsoever with sanctions?
      - The_Colonel 4y ago
        > No, sanctions just punish generation after generation of innocent people and serve no other purpose. They are pretty effective at preventing future wars. This war happened only because Russia wasn't crippled enough after 2014.
      - layer8 4y ago
        Obviously you have a much stronger opinion on that than I do, but at the very least, sanctions should deter other countries from acting in a similar fashion. For example, if — hypothetically — China is considering invading Taiwan, they will have to factor in that the Western world will stop doing business with them. If the West hadn’t put sanctions in place for Russia, that would lessen the concern for China. Maybe you think that isn’t worth it — that’s a valid personal judgement of course.
trhway 4y ago
> Western companies and government pulling out of Russia you can't really blame the companies for not wanting to be associated in any way with a nazist regime genociding a neighboring country. And Starbucks or Mercedes pulling out of Russia isn't punishment. It is freedom of association and economic activity. Russians are whining about "punishment" because they have no idea about freedom, and that is them getting a bit of taste of it. They think they can plaster whole country with their swastika - "Z" - in enthusiastic support of the bloody genocide while the whole word shouldn't be able to express its disgust at those happenings. Especially funny how Russians are cry-baby style whining about supposed violation of their property rights by the West sanctions while Russians have been violating property rights of more than 40 million of Ukrainians (even if we don't consider all the mass killing and raping of civilians that Russians have been doing there). The deep and profound disintegration of any morals in my old country is stunning. >or issuing sanctions on private individuals. due to the size of their wealth and the de-facto rules of economic activity in Russia those aren't private wealth of private individuals - they are integral part of that nazist regime, and thus they are guilty too. And for the sanctioned Russian government officials - that is for example the Roskosmos CEO Rogozin, who is one of the main founders of the Russian Nazi movement "Motherland" (people from which has since taken prominent roles across the Russian government and the ruling Party) and who is one of the most prominent voices around Putin and the Putin's favorite, giving a Nazi salute and the end of his Nazi speech at the Russian Nazi march in Moscow. The specific phrase they all give Nazi salute to is "Glory to Russia!". https://youtu.be/xkXVVcPWSU8?t=87 https://youtu.be/xkXVVcPWSU8?t=87
- lotusmars 4y ago
  It was hilarious when people from Moscow wrote "they took away our ability to buy Chanel bags, so much for European tolerance!" Not even seeing the irony. What did they expect in response to bombing, pillaging, mass rape? Friendly hug?
  - pastacacioepepe 4y ago
    If I counted every time a NATO member committed worse atrocities but wasn't held accountable at all I'd probably stop after Ukraine is conquered. What did they expect? Probably indifference, same reaction to any war crime committed by the west so far.

baxtr 4y ago

"We want to punish you" and "We don't want to make business with you" are two very different things IMHO.

pastacacioepepe 4y ago
If you go out of your way to not do business with someone, in order to cripple them economically, then it is a punishment.
- baxtr 4y ago
  If you want to define punishment like that, it is your call. In my opinion it is not punishment to stop a relationship if the basis of that relationship was destroyed deliberately by one side.
  - pastacacioepepe 4y ago
    I don't define it, it's exactly the official definition, like it or not: > punishment: the infliction or imposition of a penalty as retribution for an offence. Then you can play all you want with language to make it say what you'd like but it's pointless.
    - baxtr 4y ago
      An "offence" as defined in a criminal code? Two countries don't share a criminal code AFAIK.
      - pastacacioepepe 4y ago
        Why do I have to keep looking up dictionary definitions for you? And why do you keep playing futile language games? Spoiler: you are still wrong.
- layer8 4y ago
  The purpose is deterrence, not punishment.
  - pastacacioepepe 4y ago
    And yet sanctions never work as a deterrent. Cuba is still socialist after 60 years of sanctions. Great deterrent! No, sanctions just punish generation after generation of innocent people and serve no other purpose. If you still mantain that the purpose is deterrence, then you must be a fool or worse, since it never works! Can't you learn from the past? Edit: Before you even dig out some article like this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/04/28/13-times-that-economic-sanctions-really-worked/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/04/28... I will make an important point: sanctions CAN work only to prevent something from happening. Once that happened, e.g. the war started, there's no sanction that can stop it and that's exactly when sanctions stop being a deterrent and start being a punishment.
    - trasz 4y ago
      And the fact that Russia is not capable of manufacturing tanks anymore has nothing to do whatsoever with sanctions?
    - The_Colonel 4y ago
      > No, sanctions just punish generation after generation of innocent people and serve no other purpose. They are pretty effective at preventing future wars. This war happened only because Russia wasn't crippled enough after 2014.
    - layer8 4y ago
      Obviously you have a much stronger opinion on that than I do, but at the very least, sanctions should deter other countries from acting in a similar fashion. For example, if — hypothetically — China is considering invading Taiwan, they will have to factor in that the Western world will stop doing business with them. If the West hadn’t put sanctions in place for Russia, that would lessen the concern for China. Maybe you think that isn’t worth it — that’s a valid personal judgement of course.

trhway 4y ago

> Western companies and government pulling out of Russia you can't really blame the companies for not wanting to be associated in any way with a nazist regime genociding a neighboring country. And Starbucks or Mercedes pulling out of Russia isn't punishment. It is freedom of association and economic activity. Russians are whining about "punishment" because they have no idea about freedom, and that is them getting a bit of taste of it. They think they can plaster whole country with their swastika - "Z" - in enthusiastic support of the bloody genocide while the whole word shouldn't be able to express its disgust at those happenings. Especially funny how Russians are cry-baby style whining about supposed violation of their property rights by the West sanctions while Russians have been violating property rights of more than 40 million of Ukrainians (even if we don't consider all the mass killing and raping of civilians that Russians have been doing there). The deep and profound disintegration of any morals in my old country is stunning. >or issuing sanctions on private individuals. due to the size of their wealth and the de-facto rules of economic activity in Russia those aren't private wealth of private individuals - they are integral part of that nazist regime, and thus they are guilty too. And for the sanctioned Russian government officials - that is for example the Roskosmos CEO Rogozin, who is one of the main founders of the Russian Nazi movement "Motherland" (people from which has since taken prominent roles across the Russian government and the ruling Party) and who is one of the most prominent voices around Putin and the Putin's favorite, giving a Nazi salute and the end of his Nazi speech at the Russian Nazi march in Moscow. The specific phrase they all give Nazi salute to is "Glory to Russia!". https://youtu.be/xkXVVcPWSU8?t=87 https://youtu.be/xkXVVcPWSU8?t=87

lotusmars 4y ago
It was hilarious when people from Moscow wrote "they took away our ability to buy Chanel bags, so much for European tolerance!" Not even seeing the irony. What did they expect in response to bombing, pillaging, mass rape? Friendly hug?
- pastacacioepepe 4y ago
  If I counted every time a NATO member committed worse atrocities but wasn't held accountable at all I'd probably stop after Ukraine is conquered. What did they expect? Probably indifference, same reaction to any war crime committed by the west so far.